<div dir="auto">Please review Michalis’ response on this thread about tangentIndex and tangentPerVertex. I believe the corresponding normal fields apply.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Level 5? That depends on updated standard.</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, May 17, 2025 at 2:04 PM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">* must have tangentIndex (unless tangentIndex same as normalIndex). </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">* If no tangentIndex, coordIndex used? </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">* tangentPerVertex? Can tangent be applied to vertex or face (like normal and color)?</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">* must have tangent vector (may be auto filled). </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">* Level 5 required since level 4 does not have tangent.</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">Thanks,</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0">Joe</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0;line-height:1.0"> </p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: May 16, 2025 10:32 PM<br>To: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Cc: Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] 3D graphics, vertex attributes Tangent index and vector</p>
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<div dir="auto">Joe,</div>
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<div dir="auto">X_ITE IFS:</div>
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<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/geometry3d/indexedfaceset/" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/geometry3d/indexedfaceset/</a></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">Summary, only tangent field.</div>
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<div dir="auto">John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, May 16, 2025 at 8:59 PM Joe D Williams via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">like for normals, is there a tangentPerVertex true/false where tangent value</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">is associated with vertex or face? </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">If tangentIndex null, is coordIndex used? </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">If Tangent vector null tangents are generated after Normal vector? </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Thanks,</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Sent: May 15, 2025 6:19 AM<br>To: X3D <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Cc: Holger Seelig <<a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" rel="noopener" target="_blank">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a>><br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] 3D graphics, vertex attributes Tangent index and vector</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1"> </p>
There are also glTF tests for tangents:
<div> </div>
<div>Geometry with tangent node:</div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/laboratory/gltf-sample-viewer/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/master/2.0/NormalTangentMirrorTest/glTF/NormalTangentMirrorTest.gltf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/laboratory/gltf-sample-viewer/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/master/2.0/NormalTangentMirrorTest/glTF/NormalTangentMirrorTest.gltf</a>
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Geometry without tangent node (auto generated tangents using MikkTSpace algorithm):</div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/laboratory/gltf-sample-viewer/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/master/2.0/NormalTangentTest/glTF/NormalTangentTest.gltf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/laboratory/gltf-sample-viewer/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/master/2.0/NormalTangentTest/glTF/NormalTangentTest.gltf</a></div>
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<div>The reflection in all half spheres should look the same.</div>
<div>Turn on IBL (Image Based Lighting).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Holger</div>
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<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:#000000">--</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:#000000">Holger Seelig</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:#000000">Leipzig, Germany</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:#000000"> </div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:#000000"><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" rel="noopener" target="_blank">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a></div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</a></div>
<div><a href="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.com/X_ITE</a></div>
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<div>Am 15.05.2025 um 10:35 schrieb Holger Seelig via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>:</div>
<div>
<div style="line-break:after-white-space">All nodes which have a normal field also have a tangent field in X_ITE, because tangents are very important for PhysicalMaterial to render correctly. Because tangents always come in conjunction with normals, normalPerVertex field is also used for tangents.
<div> </div>
<div>If there is no Tangent node, the MikkTSpace algorithm is used to generate tangent vectors, as need by the glTF specification.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If there is a Tangent node and the vector field is empty, results are undefined.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Tangent node:</div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/rendering/tangent/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/rendering/tangent/</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>IndexedFaceSet with tangent field:</div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/geometry3d/indexedfaceset/#fields-tangent" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/geometry3d/indexedfaceset/#fields-tangent</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Holger</div>
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<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">--</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">Holger Seelig</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">Leipzig, Germany</div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"> </div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" rel="noopener" target="_blank">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a></div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</a></div>
<div><a href="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.com/X_ITE</a></div>
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<div>Am 15.05.2025 um 10:24 schrieb Michalis Kamburelis <<a href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank">michalis.kambi@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>I don't know about Tangent in X_ITE...</div>
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<div>But in Castle Game Engine we have a similar extension -- Tangent node ( <a href="https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_rendering_extensions.php" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_rendering_extensions.php</a> ). Looks like we developed it independently from X_ITE :) It certainly makes sense to have a node that carry this information, to have perfect rendering. (Tangents can be auto-calculated, but there are various details in the auto-calculation algorithm that various renderers may do a bit differently. When the 3D author used "baking" to make a normalmap texture, it's better to use exact same tangents as known by the 3D authoring tool.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>At least for Castle Game Engine, the answer is: if the Tangent node is not present, but we need tangents (e.g. for bump mapping), then the tangent vectors are calculated to match the normal vectors. So there's no additional tangentPerVertex or tangentIndex, they would not make sense. By knowing the normal vectors, by know all we need to generate reasonable tangent vectors.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>See <a href="https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_rendering_extensions.php" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_rendering_extensions.php</a> for more details.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Michalis</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">czw., 15 maj 2025 o 07:43 John Carlson via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> napisał(a):</div>
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<div dir="auto">Note, it’s Tangent vector=… not Tangent point=…</div>
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<div dir="auto">John</div>
<div><br>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 12:38 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">I’d ask Holger, cc’d</div>
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<div dir="auto">I’ve not used Tangent, myself.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue;font-size:19px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:#000000">X_ITE Supports up to Level 4, so I guess you’re proposing a new level 5 for the Geometry 3D component?</div>
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<div dir="auto" style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue;font-size:19px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:#000000">Look at X_ITE IFS:</div>
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<div style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue"><span id="m_5573530255903558121m_8006930897218373268cid:ii_196d2728b82c31dd2871" style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue"><IMG_0516.png></span></div>
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<div dir="auto">Maybe check Holger’s create3000 Library for examples?</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">To retrieve examples, last time I tried:</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>git clone <a href="https://github.com/create3000/Library" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://github.com/create3000/Library</a></div>
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<div dir="auto">Online at:</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
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<div><a href="https://github.com/create3000/Library" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://github.com/create3000/Library</a></div>
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<div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue;font-size:19px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:#000000">Let’s get v2 Joe Kick out the door, check v2 finger joints, and make sure all joints have converted to v2.</div>
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<div dir="auto">John </div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 10:45 PM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" rel="noopener" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:#cccccc">
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </p>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Main questions, in IFS Level5:</div>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Is a default tangent generated if Tangent point="" field empty? </div>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">tangentPerVertex? assigned to vertex or face?</div>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">tangentIndex? If no tangentIndex is coordIndex used? </div>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </p>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Thanks,</div>
<div style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Joe</div>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: May 14, 2025 3:00 PM<br>To: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Cc: Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" rel="noopener" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] 3D graphics, vertex attributes</p>
<p style="margin:0.1rem 0px;line-height:1"> </p>
<div dir="ltr">Joe,
<div> </div>
<div>X_ITE has a tangent node:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/components/rendering/tangent/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Tangent | X_ITE X3D Browser</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Enjoy!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 4:46 PM Joe D Williams via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:#cccccc">From this:<br><br><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCetnGIkut_dyt4mwkDSTNiLTbrVg1jLo_EArE74DRg/edit?tab=t.0" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCetnGIkut_dyt4mwkDSTNiLTbrVg1jLo_EArE74DRg/edit?tab=t.0</a><br><br><br>In 3D graphics, vertex attributes define per-vertex data necessary<br>for rendering, animation, shading, and so on.<br>These attributes include geometric properties such as<br>position, normal, tangents, texture mapping information (UV coordinates),<br>shading data (vertex colors), and<br>deformation information (skinning weights and blend shapes). <br><br><br>In this discussion of vertex attributes, the only one I don't recall<br>seeing in X3D is tangent? <br><br>Associated with this work:<br><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18d1qy4jx-d_kLsam-JQAzig23w7dTau0Moe7M32lVvk/edit?gid=0#gid=0" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18d1qy4jx-d_kLsam-JQAzig23w7dTau0Moe7M32lVvk/edit?gid=0#gid=0</a><br><br><br>Thanks,<br>Joe<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></blockquote>
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