<div dir="ltr"><div>We don't actually have to do ANYTHING right away. This is mainly restricted to HAnimHumanoid skin/skinCoord (I think joints/skeleton is fixed) fields and HAnimSegment coord/children fields. So let's take our time. I just don't want it to get pushed off to yet another very long email conversation.</div><div><br></div><div>We can take our time, and make sure the engineering is done correctly, whatever the engineering is. I do think that both #1 and #2 should be addressed, which is my vote.</div><div><br></div><div>I have a plethora of examples that could be converted to JSON with x3d-tidy, using X3DJSONLD to produce Java, and it's likely most of them would show USE before DEF on XML output from X3DJSAIL (but Holger might have fixed x3d-tidy). This isn't like one example that could be fixed by hand.</div><div><br></div><div>Here's the XML archive:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/ci2had/tree/main/resources">https://github.com/coderextreme/ci2had/tree/main/resources</a></div><div><br></div><div>I dumped all of these into a batch conversion process, and started getting roundtrip issues.</div><div><br></div><div>The minimum that could probably be done is fix Holger's unconventional field order in HAnimSegment.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm just trying to prevent surprises.</div><div><br></div><div>There's probably not a lot of HAnimSegment.coord examples in the archive yet. I do think there's one under FacialAnimation.</div><div><br></div><div>John</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2026 at 4:09 PM GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>DOUG #2 - via harmless option -- add an option to Export(,,enforce_def_before_use = False) so old programs won't change behavior.</div><div dir="auto">Could #1 also be added as a harmless option?</div><div dir="auto">That would buy time for #3 browsers to solve USE-before-DEF issues, and as Vince said, DEF-before-USE isn't in the specs now, so no need for 4.1 to talk about it.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2026, 2:37 p.m. John Carlson via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Choices:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Canonicalize: Holger and John have to implement canonicalization</div><div><br></div><div>2. Fix DEF/USE ordering in X3DJSAIL and X3DPSAIL on XML output.</div><div><br></div><div>3. Allow USE before DEF.</div><div><br></div><div>4. Forget it and wait until the issue comes up, yet again! Let the next generation handle it.</div><div><br></div><div>5. Forget automation and fix things by hand.</div><div><br></div><div>Please choose 1, 2, 3, 4 and/or 5, or provide another choice. Not fixing 2 allows correct Java to be exported as USE before DEF in XML. Accepting #3 means #1 and #2 don't need fixing, but may have massive implications for a large body of software. We can actually fix all 3!</div><div><br></div><div>Recorded votes:</div><div><br></div><div>Don: #3</div><div><br></div><div>John: #1 and #2, but #2 before #1, because there are Java programners who may get surprised.</div><div><br></div><div>Doug: #2</div><div><br></div><div>Feel free to change your vote.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>John</div></div>
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