[Korea-chapter] [kaist-nps] minutes from Web3D Korea chapter meeting, day 2
brutzman at nps.edu
Mon Dec 7 18:46:06 PST 2009
Continuation from yesterday.
13. We had a second productive meeting of the Web3D Korea chapter
in Seoul Korea during the morning of Tuesday 8 December.
Dr. Myeong Won Lee, Suwon University, Chapter organizer
Dr. Kwan-hee Yoo, Chungbuk National University
JungSeop Jung, Chapter secretary, Korea Standards
JinSang Hwang, PartDB Co., Ltd.
Dr. Yong-Sang Cho, Korea Education and Research Information
Sang Won Ghyme, Senior Researcher, Electronics and Telecommunications
Research Institute (ETRI)
Dr. Don Brutzman, Naval Postgraduate School (NPS) and
member Web3D Consortium Board of Directors (BoD)
Minutes recorded by myself with periodic detailed review by the group.
14. H-Anim. Myeong-Won Lee presented her updated slideset for
H-Anim Motion Data capture. Sang Won Ghyme collaborated on this
effort, ETRI has 2 motion capture systems (Motion Analysis for HTR
data and VICON for BVH data). Good results, as before.
There is alternative proposal for recording and playing back motion data
in H-Anim scenes.
NPS reference: multiple examples
good point of comparison
not standard, just a proposal with implementation example
can we please compare the two approaches?
can we compare the two approaches to regular specification-compliant
use of simple OrientationInterpolators, then list pros/cons?
We have an H-Anim working group + mailing list
not much activity, but it does exist
cochairs: Keith Victor (Vivaty) and Joe Williams
good place to post your examples
We should look at H-Anim working group charter and see if we can resume
BVH file format
Most popular mocap data format
Licensing: royalty free? no license? does it matter?
Do any import/export converters exist for BVH?
For your example, is the BVH data always defined for the same body joints
or can the body joints vary?
If always the same, then we will always have same mapping to HAnim
If not always the same, then always need to define a unique mapping
Apparently naming and number of joints in BVH file can vary with each example.
So maybe we need to define a conversion mapping from an arbitrary BVH file to
whatever the X3D motion capture data nodes are.
Some other technical goals:
- How effective is .x3db compression on mocap data? This should be
evaluated and documented online.
- Should we consider some further compression algorithms for behavior
interpolator smoothing and predictive filtering? This might
greatly reduce the size of recorded data
- How to stream such data? This is an important new application area
that may enable good capabilities for X3D that are already
common in other virtual-world technologies. Sang Won has a
streaming presentation from past meetings that will also be
In general there are three choices for new technology:
- no change, multiple diverse ad hoc solutions
- if there are common solutions, define a "best practice" and help
make it easy with tool support
- specify, implement, evaluate a specification change
Suggested path forward:
- ask working group to resume looking at the behavior capture/playback
- invite other people to participate
- look for other possible formats of interest, especially pay attention
to any licensing restrictions
- probably discussion is private H-Anim working-group members only
- consider holding a workshop at Web3D 2010, or Call for Contributions
to ensure that we can evaluate all candidate technologies
Keith Victor has also proposed flexibility in H-Anim naming and structures.
We need to decide if these proposals must proceed one at a time, or
if they can proceed in parallel. The main problem is that the working group
has been stalled for a long time... maybe if we can state the new goals
clearly, and decide on the order to pursue them, then new work might actually
be accomplished. If we cannot show sufficient participation or consensus,
then these will simply remain as proposals and the H-Anim specification will
I think this kind of effort is probably long overdue, and a good candidate
for group work in 2010. If the interested participants are in California
and Korea, then we might resume working group teleconferences in the afternoon
California time (morning Korea time) so that everyone can participate directly.
Working group public description:
no charter found there - it should be online, but isn't :(
Mailing list subscription
Mailing list archive is broken:
last apparent entry was March 2009 :(
Len Daly: can you please restore the email archive?
Other working group problems:
No charter found - this is required
(if we don't have any goals, then we can't succeed)
Working group member directory is completely unorganized
Maybe if someone volunteered to fix H-Anim website, that would help?
Working groups that succeed follow these steps. Working groups that are
not organized will fail or dissolve.
15. E-Learning working group proposal by Yong-Sang Cho and Kwan-hee Yoo
There were many good ideas and discussion points from yesterday's
presentation. Dr. Cho and Kwan-hee Yoo would like to propose that
we consider a new working group on E-Learning.
- support use of X3D within e-learning applications
- help with Web accessibility for people with impaired access
- help participants get funding support for effective work
- Participate with other related organizations: IMS, W3C WAI,
- Produce a training course or other examples that can be
further improved or repeated successfully
- Document and develop use cases and best practices for such work
- Existing capabilities in X3D already seems sufficient to proceed,
no new technology seems to be needed at this point
- if we can get a sufficient number of people involved, usually
a face-to-face meeting (or maybe a teleconference) can get the
goals precisely stated
Candidate working group cochairs, secretary:
- who might be interested?
IMS: Yong-Sang Cho
W3C WAI: Don Brutzman
ADL SCORM: ____
- Start a public wiki page to capture and discuss these points
- Schedule and publicize a teleconference/videoconference meeting
- Ask our Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele for her thoughts
and contributions on how to best go forward
- A good organizing activity might be to prepare a Call for Participation
and publicize it, so that the "critical mass" of sufficient people
can join in order to achieve success together
This is different from many of our other technical working groups, and this
seems like it has the potential to be very energizing.
16. Myeong Won Lee would like to propose a Mobile working group.
She has already planned to hold a study for mobile 3D applications.
- Study group workshop planned for SC24 meeting late June 2010
- Call for participation needs to be announced on Web3D home page
(please work with Anita to do this)
- Other publicity is also recommended
I think that we should dedicate one of the X3D working group meetings
to discuss whether a separate Mobile working group is really needed.
It is possible that this could simply proceed as part of main X3D group.
- create a Mobile Profile, if needed
(perhaps equal to Interactive Profile + Script and a few other nodes)
- Build exemplars
- Share implementation experiences
- Create special X3D Earth archive suitable for mobile use
Could we create a wiki page to begin capturing and organizing these ideas?
After one or two meetings, if all this is documented, it will probably be
clear whether a separate working group is needed. Asking the online
community about this is a good way to assess people's interest and
17. New working groups.
The process is described at
A charter is important for each group.
Anita, can we confirm that each group has an active charter?
I believe Alan Hudson has our guidelines for "how to start a new
working group." Not found... can we get those publicized on the
above website page?
18. SIGGRAPH ASIA 2010 in Seoul Korea, 7-10 December 2010.
We discussed possible activities by Web3D Korea Chapter next year.
No website yet. SIGGRAPH ASIA 2009 online at
Some initial ideas:
- Possible meeting opportunity for Web3D Korea Chapter, open to
public, describing the group's many activities
- Booth on exhibition floor
- Can we get funding for Web3D Executive Director to attend
- Perhaps one or more tutorials?
- Perhaps a panel discussion?
- Perhaps a public X3D Showcase demonstration
all the best, Don
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270 MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA work +1.831.656.2149
X3D, virtual worlds, underwater robots, XMSF http://web.nps.navy.mil/~brutzman
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