[Korea-chapter] [X3D] Minutes of H-Anim WG meeting, July 21, 4:00pm PDT (at SIGGRAPH and via Web conference)
Joe D Williams
joedwil at earthlink.net
Tue Jul 23 06:40:59 PDT 2013
Hi All,
Here are the chat I copied at the end.
Joe
>From Don Brutzman to Everyone:
I also have an agenda comment. Can we please discuss IPR legal issues
before any technical content. Recent email last night pertains.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
We can hear Joe as well.
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
ok
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
don we cannot make out what u are saying
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
we are conversing and awaiting LA to speak
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
we cannot hear u
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
well we will just have to proceed while we try to sort this problem
...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can another meeting participant join the webex call? alternatively we
can connect using the Web3D conference line.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what is happening in the meeting room? can someone provide status?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i have sent a text message to 4 people in the room asking for status,
please
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
txt from room: Gerry is proceeding without audio...
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I dont think the voice thing is working
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
so please send us by text what you want to say
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thank you for chat
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
or send your opinions by email
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
and I will discuss them on behalf of you
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I will do that in batch mode
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can someone in room please call me, +1.831.402.4809
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
so please send me issues and I can bring them up maybe in one hour or
so
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i have tried to merge my phone call to Anita with the Webex call
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can someone send slides
to Gerry Kim (privately):
Your room audio is very distorted.
to Gerry Kim (privately):
now the room audio is very faint.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
if slides are sent, and simple scribe summaries are posted to chat, we
could have a remote meeting.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
audio is audible now, thanks
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
got chat?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
we need chat and documents by email
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
don
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
go ahead
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
we are now chatting about SCIT recommendation to create a joint
working group (official joint group)
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
to deal wtih AR stuff
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks gerry. audio from room is acceptable
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks for getting on chat
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can someone send the slides and document via email or something?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
current speaker is too faint
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
ok I will try
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I placed the mic closer to the speaker but that s the best we can do
now
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I will send SCIT resolution to you in few min
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
look at resolution 2 about recommending to create or follow process of
JWG
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
again thanks
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I just sent the files
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
people are arguing about the JWG ...
to Nicholas Polys (privately):
hi, the auio is very faint. joe
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what is status of IPR declarations in a JWG, this is the critical
blocking factor.
from jack Cogman to Everyone:
As a Joint Ad Hoc Group is not officially recognised by ISO, it will
need to be replaced by a JWG, so that a working relationship can be
established between 24 and 29. A JWG has a lead member, who is
responsible for collecting ballot comments and for maintaining the
document.
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I will bring up the issue of how JWG would handle IPR
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
I dont think anybody knows ... but Dick might know ...
from Gerry Kim to Everyone:
Thanks Jack for the input ...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Finding out the ISO procedures for documenting IPR issues may provide
a starting point.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
(I am listening via Skype, thank you Anita)
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=6295394&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%2Ffetch%2F2000%2F2122%2F3770791%2Fcustomview%2Ehtml%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D3770791%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26sort%3Dname
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
Thanks link is to the
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
COMMON PATENT POLICY
FOR ITU-T/ITU-R/ISO/IEC
to jack Cogman (privately):
the room is very faint.
to Don Brutzman (privately):
your voice came over at room volume which is still very low, can they
turn it up?
from jack Cogman (privately):
I agree, Joe, it is very faint. It makes it very difficult to
understand.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
The issue is not existence or ownership of patents. Both are facts of
life. The issue is predeclaration of patents, and whether any
royalties might apply.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Thank you Nicholas for posting the ISO document link: Guidelines for
Implementation of the Common Patent Policy for ITU-T/ITU-R/ISO/IEC
Revision 1, effective 23 April 2012
Revises initial edition of 1 March 2007
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
This is the reference we have been hoping to receive for some time and
deserves study.
to Nicholas Polys (privately):
if the questioning speaker would join web3dc, then he would
immediately understand web3d and iso ipr free policy
from jack Cogman to Everyone:
I have to leave the meeting now. Have been able to follow the general
topics of the meeting, but not the detail, due to very low audio
level.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Agreed we can compare the latest edition of X3D to this ISO policy to
confirm we are in compliance with appropriate sections.
to Don Brutzman (privately):
he is saying to put the ipr description and contributor in the spec -
he just wants to get some credit for the contributor
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Section one of the ISO Guidelines document provides an excellent
summary that matches many of the points being made.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
"1 Purpose
ITU, in its Telecommunication Standardization Sector (ITU-T) and its
Radiocommunication Sector (ITU-R), ISO and IEC have had patent
policies for many years, the purpose being to provide in simple words
practical guidance to the participants in their Technical Bodies in
case patent rights matters arise.
Considering that the technical experts are normally not familiar with
the complex issue of patent law, the Common Patent Policy for
ITU-T/ITU-R/ISO/IEC (hereafter referred to as the “Patent Policy”)
was drafted in its operative part as a checklist, covering the three
different cases which may arise if a Recommendation | Deliverable
requires licences for Patents to be practiced or implemented, fully or
partly."
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Relevant paragraph to those comments: "3 Patent disclosure
As mandated by the Patent Policy in its paragraph 1, any party
participating1 in the work of the Organizations should, from the
outset, draw their attention to any known Patent or to any known
pending Patent application, either its own or that of other
organizations.
In this context, the words “from the outset” imply that such
information should be disclosed as early as possible during the
development of the Recommendation | Deliverable. This might not be
possible when the first draft text appears since at this time, the
text might be still too vague or subject to subsequent major
modifications. Moreover, that information should be provided in good
faith and on a best effort basis, but there is no requirement for
patent searches."
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
ISO web-acessible repository
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/customview.html?func=ll&objId=3770791&objAction=browse&sort=name
to Nicholas Polys (privately):
two great links, perhaps someone who has been burned is simply seeking
assurance
from Rob Manson to Everyone:
Hello - sorry I'm late - had network problems
to Gerry Kim (privately):
share desktop? can you please turn up the room volume
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what is our topic please?
from Rob Manson to Everyone:
Hrm...the audio quality is terrible - I can't hear anyone but Gerry &
Marius and only about 60% of them 8(
from Farid Mamaghani to Everyone:
Rob, you can hear more than I can!! I can hear Gerry's voice, but
very very faint and very hard to understand
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
our speaker is full on and we can't hear you with this polycom table
top.
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
you are saying the microphone feed to too low as well?
to Nicholas Polys (privately):
ues, turn up the house audio mic volume
from Farid Mamaghani to Everyone:
If you're in the room, please switch to mic and speaker on one or more
of your machines
from Farid Mamaghani to Everyone:
Thanks, Nicholas, that helps
from Farid Mamaghani to Everyone:
audio quality is not that great, but at least the volume is audible
now
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
OK good that bypasses the polycom deal, which does not seem to be set
up on Gerry's laptop too well
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
We'll start again at 1:30
from Farid Mamaghani to Everyone:
OK, now that you muted your mic, we're back to extremely low volume
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Since the remainder of the agenda is on the technical documents, and
since there have been no other predeclarations, I will heed the
warning on the front of the documents and must recuse myself from the
rest of the sessions. Thanks for progress this morning, good luck
this afternoon.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
status is unclear... are we on a break before H-Anim meeting?
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
Yes. Myeong Won is just connecting up I think
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
can you hear us?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
I hear room and Joe loud + clear.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
the speaker was not clear
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
OK we are passing around the participants list
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
introductions from phone?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
much better Joe
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
someone is banging microphone
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Don Brutzman here, member of working work
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
cochair of X3D and a humanoid
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
all listeners need to mute microphones to avoid echo
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
question 2: can someone use chat line to provide summary of points?
it will greatly help our meeting.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
there is an audio feedback loop
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
silence...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
do we know what is wrong? is it your microphone and speaker on your
end?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
only one microphone at a time in the room please
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
testing chat 1 2 3 4
from Joe D Williams to Everyone:
i am hearing echo
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks Joe
from Myeong Won Lee to Everyone:
check
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
hello MWL
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
if the room tells us what you are trying on chat, we can tell you if
it works
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
I am here
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thank you
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
might it be better to switch to web3d teleconference line?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
we can hear you
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what document are we on?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can i call someone on phone?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
as soon as someone started talking, there is a bad feedback loop
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i am back on audio line
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what document please?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what document please?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
what document please?
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
The document being discussed is from an attachment on an E-mail
message from Myeong Won that was sent around 1527 today and is the
initial draft for Part 1 of 19774 revision.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks - presumably from "two initial WDs (outlines) for the NWIPs"
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
Yes
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
(if William spoke, he is too far from Mike)
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
(if William spoke, he is too far from mic)
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Joe and I agree that having the initial WDs are good for group review
and improvement
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
whoever is speaking right now is too far from mic
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
MWL is very clear but other speaker is not
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
who is on chat in the room please?
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
The microphone on Myeong Won's computer does not sense very far. I
have added a headset for me to use.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thank you Dick. MWL is very clear.
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
We are now discussing Part 2 initial draft.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
If another speaker in room has a comment, they merely need to speak
near the microphone.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
room is silent, Joe + Don can hear each other
from Joe D Williams to Everyone:
hotel is silent
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/
from Joe D Williams to Everyone:
can the desjtio be shared?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can the desktop be shared? or slides sent to h-anim mailing list?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i think i am experiencing 7 of those emotions at once...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
we like slide 6 but cannot hear speaker
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
Myeong Won is resending the file.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can ths slides be sent by email to hanim list?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thank you for sending
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
why not include h-anim list
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
thanks i have them
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
the audio remains terrible but the slides are great!
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
slide 13: yes let's define facial expression using Displacers. Is
there a simple, anatomically correct feature set we can use? (no
patent royalties allowed)
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
slide 12: numbers need units, are they correlation factors or what?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
is there a paper with details?
from Dick Puk to Everyone:
The units can be thought of as millimeters.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
found "Anticipation for Facial Animation" by Jung-Ju Choi at
http://www.osti.gov/eprints/topicpages/documents/record/043/1789023.html
and http://visualcomputing.yonsei.ac.kr/papers/2004/anticipation.pdf
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
(.pdf link not working)
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
six basic emotions each have and intensity range
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
in Oasis HumanML
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
in
https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/61/HM.Primary-Base-Spec-1.0.pdf
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Nice reference... any ideas on their status? Should H-Anim group
reach out to the past participants? Not found at
https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
maybe WS-BPEL Extension for People (BPEL4People)
Expanding the Business Process Execution Language to support human
interactions
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
interesting extension idea there...
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
implications of another joint organization - hand and foot ...
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
is there something like Jack human factors that we are looking to so
... or is this for visual simulation only?
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
the wrist connection to the forearem is quite different in this
proposal
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
talking about existing work
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_tc_browse.htm?commid=53362
from Joe D Williams to Everyone:
implications of another joint organization - hand and foot ...? For
the foot, thiis would complete the joint structure, For the hand, this
is enough different to need more study to actually see if the limits
he sees are a problem.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
Please ask speakers if they can each prepare suggested lists of (a)
changes and (b) additions to H-Anim Specification.
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
I recommend that any changes have to be confirmed by Medical Working
Group with a shared goal of becoming anatomically correct.
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
yes
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i have posted a set of questions to h-anim mailing list...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i can send them 1 at a time if you want...
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can someone put email on screen?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
next email please
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
a 2nd has not come through not
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
can MWL show pictures and someone else show the scene?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
please show 4th image:
http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimSpecificationLOA3MotionView3dscene.png
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
works nicely in Instant Player!
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
William just left the meeting
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
how many computer scientists does it take to move a mouse?
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
answer: we are still trying to figure that out...
from Nicholas Polys to Everyone:
:-)
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
i think we have a lot of work to continue, i suggest we meet at both
times
from Don Brutzman to Everyone:
hooray! thank you
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myeong Won Lee" <mwlee at suwon.ac.kr>
To: <h-anim at web3d.org>
Cc: <korea-chapter at web3d.org>; <x3d at web3d.org>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 6:40 PM
Subject: [X3D] Minutes of H-Anim WG meeting, July 21, 4:00pm PDT (at
SIGGRAPH and via Web conference)
>
> Below are the minutes of the H-Anim WG meeting at SIGGRAPH.
> If there is anything missing, please add comments as necessary.
>
>
> Attendees:
> In person: William Glascoe, Dick Puk, Koji Makita, Kwan-Hee Yoo,
> Nicholas Polys,
> Anita Havele, Hwanyong Lee, Joo Young Do, Jung-Ju Choi, Gerard
> J. Kim,
> Ha-Jine Kimn, Johannes Behr, Myeong Won Lee
> Via Web conference: Joe Williams, Don Brutzman
>
>
> Nicholas would like to include the chat messages posted during the
> meeting via the ISO webex chat feature to these minutes. However,
> Gerry and I are not sure how to gather a log of the messages. (I am
> familiar with how to do this with Skype, for example, but not with
> webex.)
> My apologies.
>
>
>>The H-Anim WG meeting will be held with agenda items as follows:
>>Time: July 21 (Sun) 4:00-6:00pm
>>Location: Hilton Anaheim Hotel and via Web conference
>>(https://iso-meetings.webex.com)
>>Attendees will be in person and via Web conference.
>>1. Review of NWIP documents for the new H-Anim
>
>
>
> The following item has been added to the scope of the previous
> version:
>
> - 11) 3D medical object for a humanoid: Humanoid models are useful
> in the medical field, including whole humanoids and partial
> humanoids (a segment or a partial segment), depending on the
> characteristics of the 3D medical application. 3D modeling and
> animation for medical objects should be defined. Volume rendering
> for medical applications is not included in this item.
>
>
>
> - Joe commented that the following items should be corrected because
> a skeletal humanoid can have 3D geometry with segment objects.
>
> 8) Skeletal humanoid: Skeletal humanoid has typically been
> represented as the hierarchical structure of a human figure with a
> simple geometry according to the relationship of joints. However,
> the representation should be enhanced to reference real skeletons
> with 3D geometric data to apply in medical and health fields. An
> enhanced definition for skeletal humanoid is necessary with skinned
> humanoid representation.
>
>
>
> - Based on Joe's comment, this item is amended to the following:
>
> 8) Skeletal humanoid: Skeletal humanoid has typically been
> represented as the hierarchical structure of a human figure with a
> simple geometry according to the relationship of joints. Real
> skeletons can be represented with 3D geometric data using segment
> objects. If we consider whole body and partial body in medical
> applications, an enhanced definition for skeletal humanoid is
> necessary with skinned humanoid representation.
>
> Please send comments if this is not acceptable.
>
> Joe, I have just read your e-mail with your concerns about skeletal
> and skinned humanoids.
>
>
> If the above mentioned descriptions are not clear, I will update
> them again based on your recommendations, after taking a closer
> look.
>
>
>
>>2. Review of initial drafts for the WDs of the two parts (NWIP)
>>
>>- Humanoid Animation - Architecture (Part 1)
>>- Humanoid Animation - Motion Capture (Part 2)
>
>
>
> In Part 1 WD, ISO/IEC 19774 will be revised as follows:
> - Part 1 includes all the content of ISO/IEC 19774, and will be
> enhanced with details of existing concepts and new items.
> - Existing concepts with be enhanced with further details and
> examples relating to recent work.
> - New items will be added with details and examples.
>
>
>
> Part 2 WD has been enhanced from the draft summary presented at
> previous Korea Chapter meetings and SC24 meetings.
> All new items in the scope of the NWIP for Part 2 have been
> summarized.
> These will be enhanced with further explanations.
>
>
>
>>3. New proposals
>>
>>- Facial animation, Prof. Jung-Ju Choi (Ajou University, Korea)
>>- Hands and Feet animation, Prof. Kwan-Hee Yoo (Chungbuk National
>>University, Korea)
>
>
>
> In Jung-Ju Choi's presentation, he mentioned that it is very
> difficult to define facial expression using the current H-Anim
> specification.
> He focused on the following points:
>
> - Because H-Anim is based on the skeleton hierarchy, and because
> facial animation is not relevant to the hierachy, it is very
> difficult to use H-Anim for facial expression.
> - Although displacer nodes can be used for facial expression, we
> would have to define numerous displacer nodes, perhaps hundreds or
> more for each facial expression.
>
>
>
> During Kwan-Hee Yoo's presentation, he mentioned that current H-Anim
> is lacking in representing hands and feet animation.
> He is considering gesture animation of hands and feet using H-Anim,
> but it is difficult to represent gesture because of the following
> points:
>
> - Anatomically, the number of joints for hands and feet is lacking
> in the H-Anim specification. This is required to define them
> anatomically in detail.
> - He also thinks that the hierarchy of H-Anim makes gesture of hands
> and feet impossible because the motion of palm, sole, or top of foot
> does not depend on this hierarchy.
>
>
> The joints of palm and foot are not represented with tree structure
> (tree structure), but rather formed in a cycle.
>
> The two proposals will also be discussed further at the SC24 Sydney
> meeting to be held in the last week of August.
> They will continue to develop standards in order to enhance the
> functionality of H-Anim.
> These proposals will also be discussed further at upcoming H-Anim WG
> meetings.
>
>
>
>>4. H-Anim characters designed with general 3D tools
>
> Due to time restrictions, this item could not been discussed at the
> meeting. However, the content is the same as was presented
> previously.
> Demonstration of an H-Anim motion viewer with various H-Anim
> characters designed with a general 3D tool was scheduled.
> The method of designing an H-Anim character using a general 3D tool
> is included in the Annex of Part 2 WD.
>
>
>
>>5. Scheduling next meeting
>>(1st Wed) August 7 at 5:00pm PDT (1st, 9:00am KST) or
>>(3rd Mon) August 19 at 5:00pm PDT (3rd, 9:00am KST)
>
>
>
> The next H-Anim WG meeting will be held on August 7th at 5pm on the
> Web3D teleconference.
>
> Thank you to all attendees, including those in person as well as
> those attending via Web conference.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Myeong
>
>
> --
> Myeong Won Lee
> Dept. of Information Media, College of IT, U. of Suwon
> Hwaseong-si, Gyeonggi-do, 445-743 Korea
> Tel) +82-31-220-2313, +82-10-8904-4634
> E-mail) mwlee at suwon.ac.kr
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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