[semantics-public] interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation

[John Carlson]

Might I suggest one convert the X3DUOM and scene files to Prolog or
LiveCode?   Does Prolog have a 3D extension?   Does LiveCode have a 3D
extension?

I do not know these suggestions are reasonable or not.   I’m just opening a
door of possibility.

Don, I found the X3DUOM as Turtle.

John

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:42 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
>
>    - it's hard for me to understand how this would
>    apply immediately to X3D
>
>
>
> However you can specify actual content by an author producing some
> combinations of abstract and strictly defined indication of what
> visualization is desired, then sooner or later we want some human and
> machine readable user code to examine, validate, and execute. If the
> author’s intent is to produce an interactive environment then first the
> author needs to understand available objects and interactions. If we place
> an interactive humanoid in the environment, then we need to be able to
> define its features. The application to x3d happens when we form the links
> between aspects of the environment and the humanoid the author wishes to
> define using some interaction with some authoring system then the authoring
> system delivers some realtime simulation of the author’s intent. The x3d is
> in the parts where something relates intent to some constructed object
> somewhere and transportable user code. Where else than x3d can we find such
> a fine linkage between the concrete or abstract object the author wishes to
> produce and actual user code representation of some device or interaction?
>
> For humanoids, he author might need some hints to begin to define the
> character, then some more to define some standard behaviors. Where else
> than x3d is there the possibility to, for example, interrogate the use code
> in order to find usage of certain objects and observed events? When
> categorizing scene contents by examination of included hierarchies and
> events, where else than x3d would you find the base user code generator
> vocabulary with such a direct connection with actual graphics elements,
> whatever you might be searching for, and whatever author actions might be
> used to specify content and interactions?
>
>
>
>    - interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation
>
>
>
> For hanim, of course we ought be to be able to find ”kicking ball with
> skin” for example and find something, bring it to the system, and see if it
> can be used directly or modified. This is the part where there is data out
> there that must be captured and turned into some usable information, then
> analyzed and categorized into some knowledge, so we can find examples of
> usable humanoids that can be studied until they are wise enough for actual
> application of generating some more data. T every step of this our x3d
> basic stuff and hanim offers a link between what the author or character
> might be looking for and what is available. Whatever quack the author might
> use, there is probably a semantic method for finding it using terms for
> items and interactions, even though connections may depend upon commentary
> and metadata in the accessible catalog of connections.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, July 17, 2020 2:19 PM
> *To: *Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>; X3D Semantic Web Working
> Group <semantics-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation
>
>
>
> •step up on stump•
>
> I think what I was proposing was NSM for a semantic language of X3D.   I
> don’t think I made that clear.   Again, movies, symbols and shapes; what
> languages or mishmashes can handle all of them without a serious amount of
> work?   No, I don’t want to go backwards like the web did.   Now that the
> web has begun to catch up, what can we do with it?   What steps can we take
> to improve it?
>
>
>
> My goal here is to integrate vector, character and raster, among other
> things, or at least raise awareness.   PostScript/PDF has done it.   3D
> graphics has not typically supported text as a first class citizen, and the
> web and NSM have not typically supported 3D graphics as a first class
> citizen.   I don’t want to see further “mistakes” like that.   I want to
> lower barriers, not raise them.
>
>
>
> I believe that one of the things Bruce Garner, Nik Mitschkowitz, Don
> Vickers and Carolyn Wimple were working on was the integration of STEP and
> CGM with SGML.   I do not know why that was not made widespread.   Perhaps
> there was competition with HP and Adobe?   I am sorry I was not more clued
> into their project.   I understand now!
>
>
>
> NSM has more history than OWL/RDF/Turtle and should be considered!
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:17 PM Michael Turner <
> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So I skipped to the last paragraph, as John suggested. To the rest of
> you: John's understanding of Natural Semantic Metalanguage (NSM) is
> limited. From my more informed stance on NSM (and from some very
> limited acquaintance with X3D) can say categorically: X3D is not "the
> NSM of graphics."
>
> While I'm interested in attempting what I call Natural Semantic
> Programming (that is, programming built up in a declarative style, in
> natural language, and executed with constraint solvers, perhaps Prolog
> or ECLiPSe to start), it's hard for me to understand how this would
> apply immediately to X3D. Nor can I understand why any X3D standards
> developer or user would care.
>
> Any NSM-based computational framework that's capable of 3D graphical
> animation would probably need start with "what is a bit?" and build up
> from there, through floating point computation and matrix math. That's
> hardly a good starting point for anything like humanoid animation at
> this point. The main advantage of NSM would be to enable interlingual
> programming that's not just highly accessible not only to
> non-programmers, but interlingually so -- programs described in one
> natural language could be readily translatable to another.
>
> John tried to interest me in sign language, and fair enough: sign
> languages are natural languages. But to go from (say) English straight
> to some sign language seemed to freight my Natural Semantic
> Programming agenda with an elaborate graphical aspect at a time when
> that agenda was still just a twinkle in my (inner) eye.
>
> Long story short: you can safely ignore all this.
>
> Regards,
> Michael Turner
> Executive Director
> Project Persephone
> 1-25-33 Takadanobaba
> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 169-0075
> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
> turner at projectpersephone.org
>
> Understand - http://www.projectpersephone.org/
> Join - http://www.facebook.com/groups/ProjectPersephone/
> Donate - http://www.patreon.com/ProjectPersephone
> Volunteer - https://github.com/ProjectPersephone
>
> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:01 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Don, all, would it be possible to get the X3DUOM as RDF/Turtle (just as
> an interesting exercise)?  Thanks!
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > TL;DR;  Just read last paragraph if you like.
> >
> > The subject basically describes all the technology I've been describing
> to you.  I have never achieved a complete compiler to machine code for a
> general language. It's possible that I've created a bytecode interpreter
> using the translator flat file format converted to
> compileable/interpretable C++ variable declarations. I did at one point,
> expand branches into the steps a branch would take as a C++ function, but
> went no further and backed out, primarily because I wanted to decompile the
> code.  I was able to compare the flat file to the decompiled code by
> re-persisting the programs, to verify the source code generator.
> >
> > This is how I am a languages guy, I guess.  I am not a big Natural
> Semantic Metalanguage (NSM) fan, but if NSM statements can be couched in
> the terms of persistent objects or class grammar (even list of lists...of
> primes--the obvious choice), and can fulfill the last paragraph, I would be
> interested in exploring the NSM concept for whatever purpose you want.
> >
> > As a side note, I state that I've been able to convert documents to
> lists of lists of words.  I merely used something like PDF->HTML, and
> converted HTML div's to JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) arrays. I wanted
> to do JSON translation-by-demonstration and I had an existing data source.
> We can have a very large supply of documents represented as JSON arrays, if
> we need it. I realize that NSM-DALIA takes English.
> >
> > I guess we're dealing with a *semantic* object model and *semantic*
> graph with NSM.  The Web3D consortium is currently working with RDF/Turtle
> I believe.  There's also OWL/OWL2.  I should be able to provide you with
> around 3000 .ttl (RDF/Turtle) files in a single domain (X3D) translated
> from XML:
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Examples
> (try Online link, .ttl is on right for individual scenes).  Did you send me
> an NSM Bible at one point?  Can we translate RDF/Turtle to NSM?
> >
> > Ah yes!
> https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/155252/2/What%20Christians%20Believe%20for%20Open%20Research%2020190204.pdf
> >
> > I'm not saying that RDF/Turtle is even desirable.  I just have a bunch
> of XML files (X3D scenes--non-RDF) I'd like to convert to their processable
> semantics.  We may have to improvise some of the semantics, that is,
> someone converts animations to semantics, such as "walk."  (I know this
> isn't an NSM prime.  I want something like "move from point to point
> upright at normal speed using legs") It's very likely we would have to have
> thousands of walk examples, and many more with "not walk", and do some kind
> of supervised learning with current technology that I've seen (I need to
> think about adversarial networks, here).  It may be possible to convert
> each NSM prime to an animation, IDK.  I tried both the dictionary approach
> (word->video) and the SignWriting approach (word->icons)
> >
> > I know NSM is about breaking down larger structures into simpler ones.
> Say I'd like to reduce the X3D to VR/AR animations (assume for conversion
> to a 4D printer/animatronics).  If NSM-DALIA would help with that, I'm all
> ears.  If we can even create animations from NSM phrases (skipping the
> X3D), that would be awesome!  Can we create an animation of Towers of Hanoi
> from the NSM code in your Natural Semantic Programming paper?
> >
> > Yes, I realize you assigned me that very goal with translating a single
> word to an animation, which I have not achieved yet.
> >
> > In other words, we need to extend NSM to handle virtual worlds, or
> satellite worlds, not only human worlds, right? How does one describe a
> virtual world in NSM?  We have Towers of Hanoi.   We can obviously use any
> language we like as long as it can be reduced to NSM primes.
> >
> > The HAnim (Humanoid Animation) ISO standard:
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/index.html  has
> been ratified.  We now need examples of HAnimMotion (.bvh) elements.  This
> is my other job.
> >
> > The difficulty in all of this is translating from spatiotemporal
> semantics (geometry, coordinates, etc.) to/from NSM semantics. The NSM
> primes for this are:
> >
> > Time:  WHEN/TIME, NOW, BEFORE, AFTER, A LONG TIME, A SHORT TIME, FOR
> SOME TIME, MOMENT
> >
> > Space: WHERE/PLACE, HERE, ABOVE, BELOW, FAR, NEAR, SIDE, INSIDE, TOUCH
> (CONTACT)
> >
> > Thus, there are three kinds of "output," movies, symbols, and shapes.
> NSM handles symbols.   What handles movies and shapes?  X3D!  I don't care
> if it's VRML, XML, JSON, Turtle, Python, JavaScript, Java ... X3D is the
> NSM of graphics!  Now, how can NSM and X3D work together?
> >
> > John
>
>
>
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