[semantics-public] interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation

[John Carlson]

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?t=21079

One possibility.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 8:42 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Might I suggest one convert the X3DUOM and scene files to Prolog or
> LiveCode?   Does Prolog have a 3D extension?   Does LiveCode have a 3D
> extension?
>
> I do not know these suggestions are reasonable or not.   I’m just opening
> a door of possibility.
>
> Don, I found the X3DUOM as Turtle.
>
> John
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:42 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>    - it's hard for me to understand how this would
>>    apply immediately to X3D
>>
>>
>>
>> However you can specify actual content by an author producing some
>> combinations of abstract and strictly defined indication of what
>> visualization is desired, then sooner or later we want some human and
>> machine readable user code to examine, validate, and execute. If the
>> author’s intent is to produce an interactive environment then first the
>> author needs to understand available objects and interactions. If we place
>> an interactive humanoid in the environment, then we need to be able to
>> define its features. The application to x3d happens when we form the links
>> between aspects of the environment and the humanoid the author wishes to
>> define using some interaction with some authoring system then the authoring
>> system delivers some realtime simulation of the author’s intent. The x3d is
>> in the parts where something relates intent to some constructed object
>> somewhere and transportable user code. Where else than x3d can we find such
>> a fine linkage between the concrete or abstract object the author wishes to
>> produce and actual user code representation of some device or interaction?
>>
>> For humanoids, he author might need some hints to begin to define the
>> character, then some more to define some standard behaviors. Where else
>> than x3d is there the possibility to, for example, interrogate the use code
>> in order to find usage of certain objects and observed events? When
>> categorizing scene contents by examination of included hierarchies and
>> events, where else than x3d would you find the base user code generator
>> vocabulary with such a direct connection with actual graphics elements,
>> whatever you might be searching for, and whatever author actions might be
>> used to specify content and interactions?
>>
>>
>>
>>    - interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation
>>
>>
>>
>> For hanim, of course we ought be to be able to find ”kicking ball with
>> skin” for example and find something, bring it to the system, and see if it
>> can be used directly or modified. This is the part where there is data out
>> there that must be captured and turned into some usable information, then
>> analyzed and categorized into some knowledge, so we can find examples of
>> usable humanoids that can be studied until they are wise enough for actual
>> application of generating some more data. T every step of this our x3d
>> basic stuff and hanim offers a link between what the author or character
>> might be looking for and what is available. Whatever quack the author might
>> use, there is probably a semantic method for finding it using terms for
>> items and interactions, even though connections may depend upon commentary
>> and metadata in the accessible catalog of connections.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Friday, July 17, 2020 2:19 PM
>> *To: *Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>; X3D Semantic Web Working
>> Group <semantics-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: interpreter -> compiler -> Humanoid Animation
>>
>>
>>
>> •step up on stump•
>>
>> I think what I was proposing was NSM for a semantic language of X3D.   I
>> don’t think I made that clear.   Again, movies, symbols and shapes; what
>> languages or mishmashes can handle all of them without a serious amount of
>> work?   No, I don’t want to go backwards like the web did.   Now that the
>> web has begun to catch up, what can we do with it?   What steps can we take
>> to improve it?
>>
>>
>>
>> My goal here is to integrate vector, character and raster, among other
>> things, or at least raise awareness.   PostScript/PDF has done it.   3D
>> graphics has not typically supported text as a first class citizen, and the
>> web and NSM have not typically supported 3D graphics as a first class
>> citizen.   I don’t want to see further “mistakes” like that.   I want to
>> lower barriers, not raise them.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that one of the things Bruce Garner, Nik Mitschkowitz, Don
>> Vickers and Carolyn Wimple were working on was the integration of STEP and
>> CGM with SGML.   I do not know why that was not made widespread.   Perhaps
>> there was competition with HP and Adobe?   I am sorry I was not more clued
>> into their project.   I understand now!
>>
>>
>>
>> NSM has more history than OWL/RDF/Turtle and should be considered!
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:17 PM Michael Turner <
>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So I skipped to the last paragraph, as John suggested. To the rest of
>> you: John's understanding of Natural Semantic Metalanguage (NSM) is
>> limited. From my more informed stance on NSM (and from some very
>> limited acquaintance with X3D) can say categorically: X3D is not "the
>> NSM of graphics."
>>
>> While I'm interested in attempting what I call Natural Semantic
>> Programming (that is, programming built up in a declarative style, in
>> natural language, and executed with constraint solvers, perhaps Prolog
>> or ECLiPSe to start), it's hard for me to understand how this would
>> apply immediately to X3D. Nor can I understand why any X3D standards
>> developer or user would care.
>>
>> Any NSM-based computational framework that's capable of 3D graphical
>> animation would probably need start with "what is a bit?" and build up
>> from there, through floating point computation and matrix math. That's
>> hardly a good starting point for anything like humanoid animation at
>> this point. The main advantage of NSM would be to enable interlingual
>> programming that's not just highly accessible not only to
>> non-programmers, but interlingually so -- programs described in one
>> natural language could be readily translatable to another.
>>
>> John tried to interest me in sign language, and fair enough: sign
>> languages are natural languages. But to go from (say) English straight
>> to some sign language seemed to freight my Natural Semantic
>> Programming agenda with an elaborate graphical aspect at a time when
>> that agenda was still just a twinkle in my (inner) eye.
>>
>> Long story short: you can safely ignore all this.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael Turner
>> Executive Director
>> Project Persephone
>> 1-25-33 Takadanobaba
>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 169-0075
>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>
>> Understand - http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>> Join - http://www.facebook.com/groups/ProjectPersephone/
>> Donate - http://www.patreon.com/ProjectPersephone
>> Volunteer - https://github.com/ProjectPersephone
>>
>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
>> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:01 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Don, all, would it be possible to get the X3DUOM as RDF/Turtle (just as
>> an interesting exercise)?  Thanks!
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > TL;DR;  Just read last paragraph if you like.
>> >
>> > The subject basically describes all the technology I've been describing
>> to you.  I have never achieved a complete compiler to machine code for a
>> general language. It's possible that I've created a bytecode interpreter
>> using the translator flat file format converted to
>> compileable/interpretable C++ variable declarations. I did at one point,
>> expand branches into the steps a branch would take as a C++ function, but
>> went no further and backed out, primarily because I wanted to decompile the
>> code.  I was able to compare the flat file to the decompiled code by
>> re-persisting the programs, to verify the source code generator.
>> >
>> > This is how I am a languages guy, I guess.  I am not a big Natural
>> Semantic Metalanguage (NSM) fan, but if NSM statements can be couched in
>> the terms of persistent objects or class grammar (even list of lists...of
>> primes--the obvious choice), and can fulfill the last paragraph, I would be
>> interested in exploring the NSM concept for whatever purpose you want.
>> >
>> > As a side note, I state that I've been able to convert documents to
>> lists of lists of words.  I merely used something like PDF->HTML, and
>> converted HTML div's to JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) arrays. I wanted
>> to do JSON translation-by-demonstration and I had an existing data source.
>> We can have a very large supply of documents represented as JSON arrays, if
>> we need it. I realize that NSM-DALIA takes English.
>> >
>> > I guess we're dealing with a *semantic* object model and *semantic*
>> graph with NSM.  The Web3D consortium is currently working with RDF/Turtle
>> I believe.  There's also OWL/OWL2.  I should be able to provide you with
>> around 3000 .ttl (RDF/Turtle) files in a single domain (X3D) translated
>> from XML:
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Examples
>> (try Online link, .ttl is on right for individual scenes).  Did you send me
>> an NSM Bible at one point?  Can we translate RDF/Turtle to NSM?
>> >
>> > Ah yes!
>> https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/155252/2/What%20Christians%20Believe%20for%20Open%20Research%2020190204.pdf
>> >
>> > I'm not saying that RDF/Turtle is even desirable.  I just have a bunch
>> of XML files (X3D scenes--non-RDF) I'd like to convert to their processable
>> semantics.  We may have to improvise some of the semantics, that is,
>> someone converts animations to semantics, such as "walk."  (I know this
>> isn't an NSM prime.  I want something like "move from point to point
>> upright at normal speed using legs") It's very likely we would have to have
>> thousands of walk examples, and many more with "not walk", and do some kind
>> of supervised learning with current technology that I've seen (I need to
>> think about adversarial networks, here).  It may be possible to convert
>> each NSM prime to an animation, IDK.  I tried both the dictionary approach
>> (word->video) and the SignWriting approach (word->icons)
>> >
>> > I know NSM is about breaking down larger structures into simpler ones.
>> Say I'd like to reduce the X3D to VR/AR animations (assume for conversion
>> to a 4D printer/animatronics).  If NSM-DALIA would help with that, I'm all
>> ears.  If we can even create animations from NSM phrases (skipping the
>> X3D), that would be awesome!  Can we create an animation of Towers of Hanoi
>> from the NSM code in your Natural Semantic Programming paper?
>> >
>> > Yes, I realize you assigned me that very goal with translating a single
>> word to an animation, which I have not achieved yet.
>> >
>> > In other words, we need to extend NSM to handle virtual worlds, or
>> satellite worlds, not only human worlds, right? How does one describe a
>> virtual world in NSM?  We have Towers of Hanoi.   We can obviously use any
>> language we like as long as it can be reduced to NSM primes.
>> >
>> > The HAnim (Humanoid Animation) ISO standard:
>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/index.html
>> has been ratified.  We now need examples of HAnimMotion (.bvh) elements.
>> This is my other job.
>> >
>> > The difficulty in all of this is translating from spatiotemporal
>> semantics (geometry, coordinates, etc.) to/from NSM semantics. The NSM
>> primes for this are:
>> >
>> > Time:  WHEN/TIME, NOW, BEFORE, AFTER, A LONG TIME, A SHORT TIME, FOR
>> SOME TIME, MOMENT
>> >
>> > Space: WHERE/PLACE, HERE, ABOVE, BELOW, FAR, NEAR, SIDE, INSIDE, TOUCH
>> (CONTACT)
>> >
>> > Thus, there are three kinds of "output," movies, symbols, and shapes.
>> NSM handles symbols.   What handles movies and shapes?  X3D!  I don't care
>> if it's VRML, XML, JSON, Turtle, Python, JavaScript, Java ... X3D is the
>> NSM of graphics!  Now, how can NSM and X3D work together?
>> >
>> > John
>>
>>
>>
>
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