[X3D-Public] X3dom + PROTO

Mon Nov 9 16:04:51 PST 2009

Hi,

> Vivaty made some headway into this proto problem. They actually  
> invented yet-another meta language to help it out,
> but it could be done without that, perhaps using normal x3d meta  
> data, but basically the idea is:
> -Put your 3D content into x3d files. Use little or no script nodes.  
> (their meta language describes the interfaces, but a proto file  
> could do just as well)
> -Put your code associated into javascript files. Remember - object- 
> oriented is your friend.
> -You need to keep the x3d and js files in sync. This is a slight  
> more pain than having them in one file (using script nodes), but  
> hey. There
> may be work-arounds for that too.
> -When the scene loads, your js is loaded into DOM to, on-the-fly.  
> The js drives the scene. Each instance of the object has its own
> data. Thus, you accomplish pretty much the same as protos, without  
> actually being protos.
> This does mean re-working your content, that should not be a shock.
> -Composite objects (think protos-within-protos) are possible, more  
> complicated though.

Sounds a lot like our PML (Player Markup Language) which sits on top  
of X3D to control avatars and behaviour in general:

http://www.instantreality.org/tutorial/controlling-behaviour/

Especially with more advanced animation methods (e.g. blending) you  
need tools which support concepts which can
not be handled by Protos right now.

>
> Question: Is the X3D Consortium planning on a revised spec? Perhaps  
> a 'web' profile? Seems like it should be, as HTML itself
> is getting the make-over.

It's still all open for discussion. We had a very productive meeting  
at TPAC and we will se where this goes. I'm very optimistic right now.

>
> I do hope than anyone and everyone that's ever contributed to open- 
> source VRML/X3D player will jump in and make
> this happen ASAP.
>
> Is anyone working with O3D? Or is it all WebGL?

It's all WebGL right now but the render is separated from the rest. It  
_should_ be ease to build a prototyped O3D backend.
It will not be optimal right now since O3D (as scene-graph API) needs  
another layer but this optimization can come later.

best regards
Johannes

>
> Dave A.
>
> Joseba Beristain wrote:
>> Hi Johannes,
>>
>> First of all, congratulations for the great work you and your team  
>> is doing with x3dom. In my opinion, this could be the key for the  
>> X3D's future, specially because a plug-in will not be necesary for  
>> users.
>>
>> I have a question about one think you said in a previus e-mail:
>> " X3D reduced to the max: No PROTO or Scripting on the X3D-scene- 
>> side. All partitioning and scripting is done on the HTML side."
>>
>> What does it mean? Does it mean it will not be possible to use X3D  
>> "files" using PROTO in X3dom? Will exist and alternative way for  
>> doing the same (or similar) including passing parameters values to  
>> "proto instances"?
>>
>> Probably becouse of  my lack of knowledge about this topic, but I  
>> don't imagine how the partitioning could be done on the HTML side  
>> doing the same things as PROTOs do.
>>
>> Thanks and best regards,
>>
>> Joseba Beristain / CIDEMCO-Tecnalia
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really like the HTML5 X3D integration work that is
>>>> currently being done. I believe the functionality is going
>>>> to be a major step forward for X3D, even if initially only
>>>> to bridge the gap for when no plugin is installed. I've seen
>>>> it work at SIGGRAPH, and the longtime foresight in creating
>>>> XML based X3D finally becomes much more apparent. Kudos to
>>>> all involved.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any proposal or consensus on how we should
>>>> eventually reference to it in a more succinct and marketable
>>>> way? Something simple that would stick (around the likes of
>>>> Flash) and help spread the word, or maybe just HTML5-X3D ???
>>>
>>> The current WebGL-based implementation (X3DOM.org) is really only  
>>> an experimental solution. It helps to sell our main points to the  
>>> HTML community
>>>
>>> - Live X3D scene as part of your DOM which allows you to  
>>> manipulate the 3D content by only adding/ removing or changing DOM  
>>> elements.
>>> - X3D without any plugin or plugin-interface
>>> - X3D reduced to the max: No PROTO or Scripting on the X3D-scene- 
>>> side. All partitioning and scripting is done on the HTML side.
>>>
>>> This intermediate solution has two major drawbacks
>>>
>>> - Feature: The current WebGL/Javascrpt layer does not allow  
>>> advanced feature e.g. (spatial) sound or movie textures.
>>> - Performance: WebGL is quite fast but we still have to do all the  
>>> traversals and scene-updates in Javascript.
>>>
>>> But the X3DOM architecture is not bound to an WebGL renderer  
>>> backend.
>>>
>>> The next step will be support for existing X3D-SAI browser as  
>>> rendering and animation backbends.
>>> The whole design (not the current impl.) was chosen with different  
>>> backbends in mind.
>>> (http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/images/3/30/X3dom-web3d2009- 
>>> paper.pdf)
>>>
>>> Therefore we believe some single line per (X)HTML document will  
>>> stay for a while:
>>>
>>> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://x3dom.org/x3dom/release/x3dom.js 
>>> " />
>>>
>>> Future version of X3DOM will use WebGL, X3D-SAI, O3D, or browser  
>>> native implementation
>>> transparent for the app-developer.
>>>
>>> The actually backend will be chosen automatically or based on the  
>>> content X3D-Profile.
>>>
>>> Therefore the current HTML-X3D solution should not be called "The  
>>> webgl solution".
>>> "X3D in DOM" or short X3DOM makes more sense.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> johannes
>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMO, the fact that no plugin is required can make this go
>>>> like wildfire. It might just be the spark to light up X3D
>>>> like never before.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Lauren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org [mailto:x3d-public-
>>>>> bounces at web3d.org] On Behalf Of Don Brutzman
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:58 PM
>>>>> To: X3D Graphics public mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] X3D+HTML5 talk presented to HTML5
>>>>> working grouptoday
>>>>>
>>>>> Don Brutzman wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> - cochair Sam Ruby was able to run the demos on his
>>>>> system without problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> his blog has interesting comments
>>>>>
>>>>>    http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Next Tuesday 8-9 am is our regular weekly X3D+HTML5
>>>>> teleconference.
>>>>>> We will review these steps and hopefully craft a website
>>>>> announcement.
>>>>>
>>>>> as usual Anita is way ahead of us - thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.web3d.org/news/permalink/x3d-wg-to-present-x3d-
>>>>> and-html-interation-at-w3c-technical-plenary-and-advi/
>>>>>
>>>>> please also add references to the wiki and the slideset at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_
>>>>> Summary
>>>>>
>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>> Watkins 270   MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>> work +1.831.656.2149
>>>>> X3D, virtual worlds, underwater robots, XMSF
>>>>> http://web.nps.navy.mil/~brutzman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> X3D-Public mailing list
>>>>> X3D-Public at web3d.org
>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> X3D-Public at web3d.org
>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Dr. Johannes Behr
>>> Leiter Projektbereich VR
>>>
>>> Fraunhofer-Institut für Graphische Datenverarbeitung IGD
>>> Fraunhoferstr. 5  |  64283 Darmstadt  |  Germany
>>> Tel +49 6151 155-510  |  Fax +49 6151 155-196
>>> johannes.behr at igd.fraunhofer.de  |  www.igd.fraunhofer.de
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> X3D-Public mailing list
>>> X3D-Public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

--
Dr. Johannes Behr
Leiter Projektbereich VR

Fraunhofer-Institut für Graphische Datenverarbeitung IGD
Fraunhoferstr. 5  |  64283 Darmstadt  |  Germany
Tel +49 6151 155-510  |  Fax +49 6151 155-196
johannes.behr at igd.fraunhofer.de  |  www.igd.fraunhofer.de