[x3d-public] Minutes of X3D WG Open Meeting; X3D v4 XML syntax can match HTML5 design and DOM

Thu May 18 11:51:03 PDT 2017

> My proposal was to completely resolve the problem of quoting by
> eliminating it by putting elements of an array into child tags. 
> There is
> also the possibility for putting a single string (SFString) into a 
> child
> tag.

I hope you can see that the suggestion is very broad and far-reaching 
and that your offer does not solve the problem as well as you are 
thinking. Perhaps creating some examples yourself of how these and 
other similar suggestions, like interpolator key time and keyvalue 
data and other interfaces, like humanoid parts, for instance, would 
impact the actual user code and validation steps. Or, even work on the 
schema and object model to see how these docs would change.

Is your rule that short are attrs and long are elements? What about 
longs that turn out to be shorts? Or, even come up with actual real 
technical or authorship problems this would solve. I also see this 
proposal in your submission and have to advise you to concentrate on 
this detail until you can show deep backing for this particular 
suggestion. Please don't wait to resolve this in your submission at

http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-next-generation

This is a basic syntax definition that garnered some good discussion 
way back when vrml decided to become xmlized and was actually one of 
the earliest decisions about the xml encoding. If you wish to keep 
this re-encoding in your proposal then please do some more of the 
background and foreground work required to bring this suggestion into 
reality. I'm sure there are folks out there that will ask why attrs 
and not elements and if there are any then we gotta find that subset 
who can provide some deep evidence for the need to change.

One factor was that XML did ot allow the level of validation for 
elements that we needed, so we chose attrs which could be validated in 
full detail. Another might have been that we could style attr content 
but not element content. While these reasons are no longer strictly 
valid, all else is same so to me that is not reason to change the 
encoding style.

So, please settle this with yourself, the community, and your 
x3d-next-gen inputs soon because, while the topic is always on the 
table, we should be able to decide on the basic encoding style and 
proceed without significant further considerations or casual 
commentary and suggestions that appear as simple paths through deep 
structual compromises.

Thanks and Best,
Joe
If you can xml it then you can xhtml it and then you can html it.
The reverse is not necessarily true without further processing and is 
the reason why the true x3d believer will choose xhtml.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leonard Daly" <Leonard.Daly at realism.com>
To: "Don Brutzman" <brutzman at nps.edu>; <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Minutes of X3D WG Open Meeting; X3D v4 XML 
syntax can match HTML5 design and DOM

> [This is only a response to quoting issues. I think I have included 
> just
> the appropriate responses]
>
>
> My question related to my proposal. I was not proposing anything for
> V3.x. I have no interest in modifying V3.x documents/standards.
>
> My proposal was to completely resolve the problem of quoting by
> eliminating it by putting elements of an array into child tags. 
> There is
> also the possibility for putting a single string (SFString) into a 
> child
> tag.
>
>
> Leonard Daly
>
>
>> On 5/16/2017 8:18 PM, Leonard Daly wrote:
>>> At some point in the discussion of singles & doubles, I ask as to 
>>> the
>>> applicability of these discussions to the current V3.x standard or 
>>> a
>>> future V4.x standard. It was answered that the discussion was for 
>>> V3.x.
>>>
>>> Leonard Daly
>>
>> [Here is a long-form explanation of the point which hopefully is
>> considered useful.]
>>
>> The representation of SFString and MFString attribute values in the
>> X3D version 3.3 XML encoding also has direct bearing on how 
>> SFString
>> and MFString attribute values can be applied in X3D v4.
>>
>> X3D version 3.3 XML encoding is found at
>>
>> 
>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/X3D_XML.html
>>
>>
>> It seemed like we had excellent conceptual resolution of several
>> tricky issues last week.  Dialog is certainly helpful.  It will be
>> good to see last week's careful refinements consistently elaborated 
>> in
>> Mantis, in specification prose and in validation diagnostic tests.
>>
>> This improved clarity on inclusion of X3D SFString/MFString content
>> within a single-quoted or double-quoted attribute value is helpful 
>> for
>> all X3D v3 versions as well as X3D v4.  No problems expected with
>> backward compatibility of existing content.  No problems foreseen 
>> with
>> prospective HTML5 representations of such attribute values in 
>> either
>> an HTML (loose) or XHTML (strict) encodings.
>>
>>
>>>> Attendees:  Roy Walmsley, Leonard Daly, Anita Havele, Vince
>>>> Marchetti, Don Brutzman, Dick Puk, Michalis Kamburelis,
>>>>
>>>> Apologies received:
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Preliminary: *_Welcome, and introductions, as necessary_*
>>>>
>>>> Roy welcomed everyone. No introductions were needed.
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Primary discussion topic: *_SFString and MFString in the XML
>>>> encoding – which quotation marks should be accepted?_*
>>>>
>>>> Ancillary topic: *_MFxxxx fields – use of commas as value 
>>>> separators_*
>>>>
>>>> *__*
>>>>
>>>> ·Introduction: Review of current and reference standards, led by 
>>>> the
>>>> meeting chair
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19775-1:2013 clause 5.3.14 SFString and SFString
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/fieldsDef.html#SFStringAndMFString)
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19776-2:2015 clause 5.1.2 Description
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/Part02/EncodingOfFields.html#Description)
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19776-2:2015 clause 5.15 SFString and MFString
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/Part02/EncodingOfFields.html#SFString)
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19776-2:2015 clause A.4 Fields
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/Part02/grammar.html#Fields)
>>>>
>>>> oIntroducing JSON (http://www.json.org/)
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19776-1:2015 clause 5.1.2 Description
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/EncodingOfFields.html#5.1.2)
>>>>
>>>> oISO/IEC 19776-1:2016 clause 5.15 SFString and MFString
>>>> (http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/EncodingOfFields.html#SFString)
>>>>
>>>> oHTML 5.1 W3C Recommendation, 1 November 2016, clause 8.1.2.3
>>>> Attributes 
>>>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/html/syntax.html#elements-attributes)
>>>>
>>>> oHTML 5.1 W3C Recommendation, 1 November 2016, clause 9.1 Writing
>>>> XHTML documents
>>>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/html/xhtml.html#writing-xhtml-documents)
>>>>
>>>> oExtensible Markup Language (XML) 1.1 W3C Recommendation 4 
>>>> February
>>>> 2004, clause 2.3 Common Syntactic Constructs [10] AttValue
>>>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xml11-20040204/#NT-AttValue)
>>>>
>>>> Roy opened the discussion with a short review of each of the 
>>>> above
>>>> references. The reference from ISO/IEC 19775-1 did not have 
>>>> specific
>>>> impact on the discussions. The next three references from ISO/IEC
>>>> 19776-2, the Classic VRML encoding, define a string to be have
>>>> double quotation marks (“), and MFStrings to be an array of 
>>>> strings
>>>> enclosed in square brackets as array delimiters. Furthermore, an
>>>> MFString with a single element does not require the square 
>>>> brackets.
>>>> This principle, of not requiring square brackets for a single 
>>>> value,
>>>> applies to all MFxxxx fields. The next two references, from 
>>>> ISO/IEC
>>>> 19776-1, the XML encoding, define a string to have double 
>>>> quotation
>>>> marks(“) and MFStrings to be an array of strings in single quotes
>>>> (‘). The remaining three HTML and XML references define attribute
>>>> values to be enclosed in either double quotes(“) or single 
>>>> quotes(‘).
>>>>
>>>> Don highlighted the existing Mantis issue on this topic that
>>>> collects some comments. This is issue 1091 -
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1091 – 
>>>> entitled
>>>> “Confusion between XML and X3D syntax for SFString”. The related
>>>> Mantis issues 705 -
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=705 – 
>>>> entitled
>>>> “Escaping backslashes” and 488 -
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=488 – 
>>>> entitled
>>>> “Handling of quotation marks” were also noted.
>>>>
>>>> Need to be careful with specifying what we mean by “double 
>>>>  quotes”
>>>> and “single quotes” or “apostrophes”. See
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-common-syn and
>>>> https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref for XML standard.
>>>> Michalis provided references to clarify this – see
>>>> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-May/006674.html.
>>>>
>>>> The question was also raised about whether the requirement in the
>>>> XML encoding for an MFString with a single value to be encoded 
>>>> using
>>>> two sets of quotation marks could be relaxed, in effect dropping 
>>>> the
>>>> outer set of quotes, just as the Classic VRML encoding drops the
>>>> array square brackets.
>>>>
>>>> The need for backslash escaping was described. They are needed in
>>>> the XML encoding because there is both an XML parser and an X3D
>>>> parser. The question of whether there should be a difference 
>>>> between
>>>> SFString and MFString escaping requirements was raised. Michalis
>>>> reported that some implementations do not recognize escape 
>>>> sequences
>>>> in SFString values – see
>>>> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-May/006690.html.
>>>>
>>>> Michalis noted that the X3D XML encoding is specific about what
>>>> quotation marks to use, compared to XML. He suggested X3D should
>>>> permit either sets of quotes, to match the XML / HTML standards.
>>>> There was general agreement that the specific X3D requirements
>>>> should be relaxed to match the XML specification for string 
>>>> attributes.
>>>>
>>>> It was agreed that escape sequences are indeed required for
>>>> MFStrings, but are not be required for SFStrings.
>>>>
>>>> It was proposed that alternative text for clause 5.15 in ISO/IEC
>>>> 19776-1 should be written. During the discussion, there was a 
>>>> large
>>>> number of e-mail exchanges on the public list, all stemming from 
>>>> the
>>>> meeting agenda at
>>>> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-May/006643.html.
>>>> At the end of the meeting discussions Don and Michalis agreed to 
>>>> put
>>>> forward new text for consideration.
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Close of Meeting: *_Thanks for participating and contributing_*
>>>>
>>>> *__*
>>>>
>>>> Roy thanked everyone for their time to participate and the
>>>> passionate contributions to the debate.
>>>>
>>>> *__*
>>>>
>>>> Roy Walmsley
>>>>
>>>> X3D WG co-chair
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> *Leonard Daly*
>>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
>>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
>>> President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>
>
> -- 
> *Leonard Daly*
> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
> President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> 