[x3d-public] New X3D network working group suggestion: Standardsforcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)

[John Carlson]

Your documents give me the feeling of a network protocol, whereas mine feel more like a database or http/rest.  Probably because we have our separate work experience. I think the DIS protocol works more like radios and GPS would be my guess.  With X3D MU, we are defining in a space of 1) chat protocols like XMPP and IRC 2) database protocols like SQL*Net 3) Object/Multimedia protocols like WebRTC and SIP.

Some comments:

People build webapps to protect users from their databases.  The corollary to this is that there might be user information that is exclusive to a user or group.

My primary request for a network protocol is that they are difficult to debug, thus you should create them similar to a command prompt, like request/reply, UTF-8, etc. However, I think with MU, you are getting events from others, so it’s more like debugging pub/sub or a messaging system like Oracle AQ, Java JMS, IBM MQ, Apache ActiveMQ, etc. 

What do you think about using pub/sub or messaging?  What “style” of protocol works best in SP-ARK’s case?  I think one to many and many to one is one of the best features of pub/sub, but often it takes a lot infrastructure to maintain the queues.

Maybe we should step back and define the objects we are communicating.

1. Avatar (initial H-Anim figure) and position, orientation, motion (ongoing).   This is done by pc.multiplayer tag around the world
2. Things the avatar might be carrying (shapes transformed by the avatars position, orientation and motion)
3. Sounds-chat-video applied to avatar position
4. ???

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Christoph Valentin
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 4:18 PM
To: John Carlson
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list; Sven-Erik Tiberg
Subject: Aw: RE: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standardsforcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)

Great, it's an unusual feeling not being alone :-) 
  
Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. März 2019 um 23:14 Uhr
Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>, "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Cc: "Sven-Erik Tiberg" <luletibbe at gmail.com>
Betreff: RE: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standards forcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)
I will review you contributions now Christoph.
 
John
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Christoph Valentin
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 2:47 PM
To: John Carlson; X3D Graphics public mailing list
Cc: Sven-Erik Tiberg
Subject: Aw: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standards forcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)
 
John,

Of course I will add these ideas to the collection of inputs.

>>>>>>>>What do you view as the primary SP-ARK actions?

1) SP-ARK is dedicated to the use (and support) of X3Dv4
2) basically, the playground is open to anybody, who is interested in simple multiuser scenes
3) probably we will implement some demo application maybe even a server (depends on support)
4) Goal 1: help the Web3D Consortium in defining an application layer protocol for the Network Sensor
5) Goal 2: to be defined
6) Goal 3: to be defined
7) and so on

8) SP-ARK has not been started yet, but with this e-mail the probability of a start increases :-)

All the best
Christoph

--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
Am 31.03.19, 21:14, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> schrieb:
Way up above the networksensor protocol is the concept of collaborate.  How can we effectively store and communicate collaborations?  Do they effectively store to a typical hierarchical file system, ala Git or Google Docs or do we need to create a new technology for collaborations? Might collaborations be “part of the network”?  What if you couldn’t work without someone to collaborate with?   Can a collaboration include parts of the physical world?
 
Christoph, you can add this as a comment to SP-ARK.  I think we need to develop some use cases or user stories for SP-ARK that involve collaboration if they are not already there:
 
Primary actions are Create, Delete, Change, Inspect,  Add, Remove, Move, Copy, Grant, Revoke.   Record Date/Time for all actions performed.
 
Create Collaboration
Create Object
Create Subject
Delete Collaboration
Delete Object
Delete Subject
Change Collaboration
Change Object
Change Subject
Inspect Collaboration
Inspect Object
Inspect Subject
Add Subject to Collaboration
Add Object to Collaboration
Add Collaboration to Collaboration
Remove Subject from Collaboration
Remove Object from Collaboration
Remove Collaboration from Collaboration
Move Subject to Location, Orientation in Collaboration
Move Object to Location, Orientation in Collaboration
Copy Object between Collaborations
Copy Collaboration between Collaborations
Move Collaboration to Location, Orientation in Collaboration
Grant access to “Collaboration, Object, Action” (key) to Subject
Revoke access to “Collaboration, Object, Action” from Subject
 
So for pc.multiplayer, there are 3 collaborations, global tag, card game and chat, managed by a server.
Objects include location, card and message
Subjects are clients
There is no real collaboration, except the server is effectively a collaboration.  There is limited communication between servers.
No grant/revoke.
 
Collaboration might be thought of as a server, table, channel, room, or conversation all at once.
 
More?  I believe if we implement this much for a network protocol for SP-ARK, we will have achieved quite a bit.
 
We should probably prototype with an easy to use protocol, that can be used from JavaScript, and “upgrade” to a more industrial protocol once we have the patterns down. That is, lower levels can be swapped out by vendors. Thus we need a “JPA-like (Hibernate)” level which unifies the persistence and communication.  I am thinking some object attributes can be annotated as persistent and/or communicateable.
 
What do you view as the primary SP-ARK actions?
 
John
 
 

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