[x3d-public] FW: 5th? in a series on the riseanddemiseControllerCentered Computing

Joseph D Williams joedwil at earthlink.net
Fri May 17 10:32:56 PDT 2019

➢ More in the domain of AI, but suited just fine to X3D.

When accepting ‘external’ input events, the browser works under control of the sender in that the sender will indicate whether the event is to be treated indiveiedually or as a group of events in the sequence they are reccieved. The sender tell to do it asap, possibly as a new single event, possibly starting aan internal event cascade. Or, the sender tells the browser to please take this group of events and execute them in the sequence received, all with the same time stamp and thus all part of the same internal event cascade.

I haven’t been able to think of a better way to do all this, considering that, of course, each ‘external’ event is a stream of data that gets a time stamp when the browser decides to make it an internal event. 

So, to me this makes the browser very easy to interact with from an external event source while maintaining a certain level of isolation from the browser runtime. .

Best Events, 

From: John Carlson
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 11:15 PM
To: info at 3dnetproductions.com; 'Joseph D Williams'; 'Leonard Daly'; 'X3D Graphics public mailing list'
Subject: RE: [x3d-public] FW: 5th? in a series on the riseanddemiseControllerCentered Computing

I am sorry that I brought up “continuous.”  I now think that Leonard’s word “continual” is more appropriate in this case.

I don’t know if I brought it up in this conversation, but I believe your “fuzzy logic” is the same thing as constraint or constraints, or classification. The problem is when supposedly independent constraints cover the same input, so 2 or more “events” are generated.

Yeah, I’m trying to expand my mind, but it tends to fall into old patterns.  Here’s perhaps a mind bending thing that’s related: “chaotic grammars.”


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From: GL
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 2:52 AM
To: 'Joseph D Williams'; 'John Carlson'; 'Leonard Daly'; 'X3D Graphics public mailing list'
Subject: RE: [x3d-public] FW: 5th? in a series on the rise anddemiseControllerCentered Computing

>From my point of view, this "continuous" input would be simlar to the input a client receives in a multiuser application (client/server relationship). The "stream" of data appears continuous, but it is in fact sent at intervals (for example 1,000 ms increments, while rendering can be smoothed out with interpolators so everything appear contiguous). Basically, what you have is a rapid succession of discreet inputs. If you don't need to deal with network latency or other constraints, the input rate can be much faster (let's say 100 ms intervals or faster). You would then pretty much have continuous input, and, in that fashion, something that works with X3D just the way we have now with SAI. 

I understand that you are trying to get at "non-event" processing, but unless we are actually 'listening' for something, then no event listener is triggered, as in the case when "Ok Google" is not heard. However, it would conceivably be possible to enter the realm of 'fuzzy logic' event handling, where the input is not precise but falls in between defined values (some quick explanation of that here: https://data-flair.training/blogs/fuzzy-logic-systems/).  We would still have discreet inputs, but they would be driven by imprecise or informal triggers, if that is what you were pondering. More in the domain of AI, but suited just fine to X3D. I don't see a problem here at all, but I like that we address questions like this. Just thinking about it opens the mind… 


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From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org] On Behalf Of Joseph D Williams
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 3:00 PM
To: John Carlson; Leonard Daly; X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] FW: 5th? in a series on the rise and demiseControllerCentered Computing

➢ Is X3D following, or is the technology not advanced enough?

All this stuff should work. Look at the x3d sai and see that a scene is capable of being built and controlled from external and, of course, internal. 

Of course, one reason we carry around the containerField stuff in both vrml and x3d is allowing fastest (is it called context-free?) parsing and activation. 

Continuous programming languages, is that like stuff that is already ready to be executed without any further work. Of course a language designed to compiling for a known realtime may look a bit different on the surface than x3d user code, but you gotta look at the whole package. 
➢ Continuous versus discrete input, I guess.
As long as input/output seems continuous to me and I don’t ever need to care about the discretes, I guess its mostly ok.


From: John Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 11:19 AM
To: Leonard Daly; X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] FW: 5th? in a series on the rise and demiseControllerCentered Computing

So for example, I might have a continuous input compiler/interpreter(CICI) or continuous input IDE (CIIDE).   This is different from continuous integration.   I’m also thinking of continuous programming languages, somewhat similar to dynamicland 
I guess, but also like dance programming (dance dance revolution video game, but continuous) and virtual pottery, ideas I had back in 1991.   I guess I have abstracted all those ideas into “continuous input devices” and assume the software is following.   Is X3D following, or is the technology not advanced enough?   Can the event loop handle it?  Are Kinect and Leap Motion well supported?   Mine are pretty much binned.

I am rejoining the agile movement it seems.


On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:38 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
That’s the general idea, Leonard, computers moving into the background, with voice, gestures/video making the computer active.
So if one’s wife suddenly screams, should one treat it as passive input, or activate?
I need an “OK Google” command I think.
Continuous versus discrete input, I guess.
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From: Leonard Daly
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 9:45 AM
To: x3d-public at web3d.org
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] 5th? in a series on the rise and demise ControllerCentered Computing
Not sure what you are trying to get to/at here.
On the topic of looking for a non-command passive input. Is the audio monitoring by your (real) phone for "OK Google" an example of non-command passive input? The command is "OK Google", but there is a lot of "listening" that happens waiting for the command. It seems like there is continual input processing and very little makes it past the "OK Google" filter, which generates a command (event) to the OS.
Leonard Daly
Model-View-Controller (from Smalltalk)  Discussion aka
Very boring, except for passive ambient input discussion (non-command controllers).
So this is stepping up a level into systems of paradigms (paradigms being view, controller, model, and processing) so around 14-15 in the hierarchy of complexity, 16 being max’ed out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_hierarchical_complexity#Stages_of_hierarchical_complexity
       View/Output components
                       Dimension 0-2
Review and Expand:
       Controller/Input Device components
                                                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_device (too many to list here)
                                                                Physical Motion (yawl, roll, dive)
                                                                Medical Devices (is there a group?)
                                                                Leap Motion
                                                                Social Forums/Chat/Voice/Video
       Video of Sports Games
       Corporation input
                                                                Emotional Energy
                                                                Therapy Robot input
                Model/Storage components
                                Primitive Types
                                Structured Types
                                                Unordered Map (object)
                                                Ordered Map (array, list, function, grid, uri)
                                                Graph (network, DAG, Hypergraph)
                                                Blood Pressure
New category, but previously covered
Not sure where this fits
So controllers are moving away from typical to atypical inputs. Controller input *might* be converted into commands.  I am trying to deal with the cases where controller input is NOT converted to commands.   Can we list them?   What do we call controller input which isn’t commands?  Is there a term for it?  Ambient input?  Here’s a use of the term: https://blog.joshlewis.org/2007/03/22/passive-ambient-input/
How do we collect and analyze these inputs? Your feedback on these subjects (research papers welcome) is desired.  Jeffrey Allen suggested that computers might move into the background, nearly invisible, and things might work off of gestures.
How might X3D create a sensor for passive ambient input that is processed in a non-event fashion, except when some condition is met. What design might we implement for passive ambient input?   One example might be to lower the output from the stereo when I’m talking on the phone.  Constrained input might be a term for it that is more typical. How might constrained input be implemented with Sensors (no I haven’t read the standard!)

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Leonard Daly
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future 

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