[x3d-public] X3D minutes 22 JAN 2021: X3D4 advancement, 2 Khronos issues, accessType adjustments, charter adjustment, adding tools
Don Brutzman
brutzman at nps.edu
Sun Jan 24 10:33:38 PST 2021
Attendees: Anita Havele, Vince Marchetti, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman. Additional participants welcome.
X3D Weekly Meeting, 09-1000 Pacific time, Friday 22 JAN 2021.
This week we have a feedback and discussion session regarding multiple topics, looking ahead at 2021 efforts.
[0.1] Web3D Teleconference Information
https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
> Please use the following link for all Web3D Consortium Meetings.
>
> Join URL: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
Confirmed that no Web3D Consortium member-only information is in these minutes.
Lots of good activity is occurring. Recent minutes and announcement:
[0.1] [x3d-public] X3D minutes 15 JAN 2021: X3D4 ballot, working group charters, spec planning 2021, Chisel
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014457.html
[0.2] [x3d-public] X3D Specification Review minutes 14 JAN 2021: EnvironmentLight and Environment nodes, SAI 19775-2
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014455.html
[0.3] [x3d-public] announce: X3D4 Sound Component and W3C Audio API
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014480.html
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1. X3D4 advancement
Member comment period is complete, thanks to everyone contributing.
Board of Directors review complete, we are now addressing final followup feedback.
Editors Mantis and specification source updates continue. This takes time. Scrutiny on mailing list and Mantis is appreciated.
[1.0] Mantis Issue Tracker
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
Key items to finish include the following.
a. Khronos feedback on alphaChannel and Image Based Lighting (IBL) aka X3D EnvironmentLight,
b. FontStyle/ScreenFontStyle fields accessType inputOutput,
c. Geometry 'solid' field as accessType inputOutput for animation capability,
d. Andreas Plesch feedback on X3D-HTML Guidelines.
Any editor changes to Working Draft WD3 at this point will be styled in neon green as "Editor Resolution" modifications. This document will remain online so that everyone has an exceptionally detailed version showing changes from X3D 3.3, with corresponding links to Mantis issue resolution, in turn with corresponding links to email threads and minutes. Thus changes and rationale X3D4 evolution remains fully transparent.
Once ready, the pristine copy corresponding to WD3 (without styling markup) will be checked into github as Committee Draft (CD).
[1.1] X3D4 Overview
https://www.web3d.org/x3d4
[1.2] X3D4 Public Working Draft Specification
https://www.web3d.org/x3dv4-public-working-draft
[1.3] X3Dv4 Working Draft (WD3) Specification (with markup)
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD3
[1.4] X3Dv4 Working Draft (WD3) Specification (pristine)
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD3/ballot
[1.5] GitHub Web3DConsortium X3D 4.0
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19775/ISO-IEC19775-1/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.0
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2. Khronos feedback comments: path forward
a. Immediate response to change X3D4 specification
Helpful deficiency feedback during ballot period regarding alphaChannel for Appearance.
[2.1] Specify alpha channel treatment (field alphaChannel for Appearance)
https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_shape_extensions.php#section_ext_alpha_channel
Please see email report by Don McCurdy and response by Michalis Kamburelis.
[2.2] [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by on 19775-1: X3D Architecture - V4.0; add Appearance alpha channel for consistency with glTF
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014569.html
Initial placeholder has been added to github specification and Michalis will continue with prose next week. If one more week is needed to finish, we will allow that.
Needed clarification: default value "AUTO" means that other requirements in the specification are handled without change.
This is implemented (or nearly done) in Castle Game Engine. How about assessment by other browsers: X_ITE, X3DOM, FreeWrl?
Tracking as
[2.3] Mantis 1340, add Appearance alpha channel for consistency with glTF
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1340
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b. Deferred response to change X3D4 specification: EnvironmentLight
[2.4] KhronosGroup/glTF/extensions/2.0/Vendor/EXT_lights_image_based
https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/tree/master/extensions/2.0/Vendor/EXT_lights_image_based
[2.5] Michalis Kamburelis: Image Based Lighting (EnvironmentLight node)
https://github.com/michaliskambi/x3d-tests/wiki/Image-Based-Lighting-(EnvironmentLight-node)
[2.6] Mantis 1336: EnvironmentLight - Khronos glTF extension for image based lighting
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1336
Michalis has reported that this seems feasible and not difficult, but he will not have it ready until later in the spring.
It is a stated goal of X3D4 to integrate glTF functionality... It is Khronos feedback that we lack this capability... The dialog has been very helpful and improved our understanding both technically and also to recognize that many Khronos implementers have achieved this capability (i.e. not just the two listed on the gltf extension).
Suggested path forward
- Submit X3D4 CD to ISO, informally noting that it lacks EnvironmentLight
- Submit a comment to ISO when that balloting occurs, noting omission and suggested resolution
- Upon completion of ISO review/ballot, if accepted, integrate into the next X3D4 CD (or next level, CD2 or Draft International Specification).
Worth noting here is that
- this is approved procedure within ISO rules which Web3D has followed in the past
- Interestingly Khronos has also become a member of ISO SC 24 and is allowed to post comments as well.
So for this feature, we do not expect to have to wait until a future X3D 4.1. Feedback from other implementers welcome.
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c. Future work
It is important for everyone to recognize the essential value of Web3D Consortium's steady, steadfast innovation of X3D capabilities.
It is further worth noting that the "X" in X3D stands for Extensible, so implementations and authors are always welcome to try new innovations.
We expect that X3D Working Group will continue to observe and execute all policies and procedures of both Web3D Consortium and ISO, as we continue forward.
Thus, as they occur and as milestones permit, we can all expect that changes in 2021 will
- be accepted as a Web3D comment to ISO regarding the X3D4.0 draft specification,
- be deferred as a future improvement in a next-year Web3D X3D 4.1 design,
- be rejected as not relevant or needing further work,
- or welcome as a custom extension, perhaps for continuing experimentation.
Everyone should have every confidence that steady progress can continue to occur, once again thanks to Web3D Consortium's execution of its mission.
[2.7] Web3D Standards Adoption Process
https://www.web3d.org/standards/adoption-process
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3. style field for Text and FontStyle nodes
[3.0] Mantis 1335: FontStyle/ScreenFontStyle 'style' field naming collisions with CSS style
https://www.web3d.org/standards/adoption-process
Immediate change: FontStyle style field have inputOutput? Improves animation capabilities, no longer any performance inhibitions against this.
Other FontStyle fields inputOutput? Same rationale holds.
State in spec that CSS changes for font can optionally be applied in parent Text node style attribute, while FontStyle/ScreenFontStyle style field performs as specified.
- prose change in node definitions
- prose change Annex L X3D-HTML Guidelines
This steady refinement has reached a really elegant solution for harmonizing X3D and HTML5 handling of text. This will have future benefit for accessibility etc. without limiting current implementations of X3D-native use.
TODO: Dick and Don resolve prose, change all fields to accessType inputOutput.
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4. IndexedFaceSet (IFS) accessType inputOutput
The 'solid' field controls single-sided or double-sided rendering of geometry. Can we make it accessType inputOutput?
[4.0] X3D4 Architecture, Shape Component, 12.2.3 Two-sided materials
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD3/Part01/components/shape.html#TwoSidedMaterials
This would be an excellent animation capability to include. Given approaches used in current-day rendering capabilities, no performance problems are expected.
This feature has no changes in X3D model content. Legacy browsers can implement the flexibility of this feature when ready, without blocking essential rendering capabilities.
Absent objections, we will apply this change.
[4.1] Mantis 1341: change 'solid' field (single-sided or double-sided rendering) to accessType inputOutput
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1341
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5. HTML X3D Guidelines feedback: still pending
> Thanks to Andreas Plesch for great emails, we will consider his points next week.
>
> [5.1] [x3d-public] L.3.1 Re: Annex L HTML authoring guidelines for X3D4; naming Script versus X3DScript
> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-December/014276.html
>
> [5.2] http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-December/014328.html
>
> [5.3] http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-December/014327.html
>
> [5.4] http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014345.html
>
> [5.5] http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2021-January/014352.html
>
> Continued dialog on email list welcome. We will review next week, all comments and insight are welcome.
Any feedback out there?
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6. Documenting changes in X3D4
We discussed "telling the story" for X3D4. We have
a. summary pages
b. detailed markup of every specific changes
c. Mantis list of issues and resolutions
d. Addition of open-source X3D4 example scenes into Web3D version control remains welcome.
We discussed whether a new document might help with X3D4 Adoption. Will discuss next week.
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7. Tool support
a. Champions needed for MeshLab and Blender
b. New initiative by Jordi Cardona for Notepad++, Don will work with him to achieve X3DUOM automation of this capability.
c. Don will work with Jordi (or whoever is interested) to add similar color-coding to UltraEdit and vim.
d. Surge by John Carlson continues to find edge-case improvement in examples and demonstrate capability. Hard to keep up with so many messages! If possible, consolidation of comments can help.
e. Don will reach back to Altova, ensuring their next build of XMLSpy tool suite.
f. Anyone want to work on Xj3D? NPS is working on upgrading the new release of JOGL.
g. Chisel now available for major review/improvement, who wants to help?
h. Nicholas has started a thread on several tools. (Can this be moved to public list?)
i. Am happy to keep adding/updating entries on the X3D Resources page.
[7.0] X3D Resources
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html
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This is where our Friday 22 JAN 2021 meeting finished. Next are followups and resolutions of "old business" from last week's meeting.
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8. Charter review, continued from last week:
> 2. X3D Working Group Charter and Goals
>
> All X3D working groups are performing annual review of charter. Please see recent message by Anita Havele, Web3D Consortium Executive Director.
>
> [2.0] Web3D Consortium Working Groups
> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups
>
> "The Extensible 3D (X3D) Working Group coordinates all technical development efforts. Working groups are essentially driven by the efforts of participants. They focus on issues and technologies that produce improvements to our open standards, always achieving results that are royalty free for any purpose. All efforts are geared towards improving a coordinated set of steadily evolving ISO standards including X3D Version 4."
>
> [2.1] X3D Graphics Working Group
> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/x3d
>
> "The X3D Graphics Working Group addresses all X3D specification issues and coordinates the technical development of future improvements."
>
> Most wording looks just fine.
no changes
>> Activities
>> a. Top priority is integrating X3D into HTML/DOM web pages for X3D version 4.
> insert "and achieving other improvements such as advanced glTF rendering and spatial audio"
applied change, omitted "Top priority" since that is mostly achieved and many priorities are currently active.
>> b. Develop the specifications and manage the Web3D/ISO processes for the X3D International Standards.
> yes. Updating each specification to X3D4 is our primary task.
no change
>> c. The Working Group meets every week to discuss, develop, and approve the current topics. These include reviewing new technologies such as Mixed Augmented Reality (MAR), integration of submitted technologies, and interfacing with external organizations for X3D.
> omit MAR; further work is expected in MAR/XR but not worth calling out specifically at this stage.
applied change
>> d. Continue work to execute Call for Contributions for Compressed Binary Encoding for X3D.
> Can omit; correlating multiple compression techniques as a workflow pipeline as part of DPS Working Group.
Revised to read "Apply various techniques to achieve goals listed in _Call for Contributions for Compressed Binary Encoding for X3D._"
Updated url to: https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/x3d/compressed-binary/x3d-compressed-binary-encoding-call-contributions
> We will update the History section following Board deliberations next week.
>
> Add:
>
> (new) d. Encourage tool updates and content validation for all forms of X3D4
Inserted under Activities.
> [2.2] X3D Working Group Charter
> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/x3d/charter
>
> Suggested change "two" to "two or more" in
>
> * "The leadership of the Working Group consists of two co-chairs."
>
> Next week we will apply these changes, pending any comments or feedback.
Done.
> Suggested review for February: following annual charter review and updates, next review:
>
> [2.3] Web3D Working Group Practices
> https://www.web3d.org/working-group/practices
This is working. Am not seeing any needed potential improvements relative to this group.
> Next week we will review:
> * Identify potential goals for X3D WG for 2021.These goals/projects will be prioritized and progress tracked during the year.
> * Accomplishments to be summarized at the end of 2021.
> * Quarterly reports to be sent to the Web3D Board: April 1, 2021, July 1, 2021, Oct 1, 2021 and Dec 31, 2021!
>
> Convergence with other 3D standards:
> - Web3D SDO Liaison, which SDOs and their working groups are relevant to our working groups.
> - How to engage: identify a Web3D liaison lead and periodic outreach to the 3D community.
>
> a. Khronos
> b. IEEE3DBP
> c. DICOM
> d. ISO
> e. W3C
I think the X3D working group and community together do a pretty good job at this, and our specification editing plans for 2021 will drive our work forward as we continue to perfect + deploy X3D4.
---
Also following up from last week:
> 3. Spec Editors Planning 2021
>
> Continuing scrutiny from last week, renumbered references:
>
>> [3.1] X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSpecificationRelationships.png
>>
>> a. Primary next step: align ISO/IEC 19775-2 Scene Access Interface (SAI) with 19775-1 X3D4 Architecture.
>>
>> The SAI is the generic interface implemented by all of the corresponding programming languages.
>>
>> Mostly OK already. Will check for completeness, consistency, correctness.
Editor review has commenced.
>> [3.2] X3D Abstract : Scene Access Interface (SAI) version 3.3
>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-2/V3.3/index.html
>>
>> Call for comment: what other SAI methods might be needed?
>>
>> - For example: exposure to view matrix, transformation matrix, utility methods in X3DOM/X_ITE, etc.
> More feedback requested. This will be an ongoing issue as we review all of the programming-language bindings.
>
> We will update 19775-2 SAI first, and keep it as a Web3D recommended practice to allow review/revision of all other language bindings to ensure everything gets updated in a synchronized way.
>
>> Already noted: our legacy focus has (obviously) been on client side, it is interesting to note that server side (and cloud computing) can be considered from a compatibility perspective. Can we run SAI headless, hooked up to other things? This is not foreseen as any kind of significant design change, rather simply alignment of what we have already.
> Confirmed
Ongoing.
>> b. Open issue: whether to include X3DUOM as an informative reference. More discussion to follow.
>>
>> [3.3] X3D Unified Object Model (X3DUOM)
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3DUOM.html
> Am thinking that this might best go in [3.2] X3D Abstract : Scene Access Interface (SAI) itself. Might fit as an informative annex.
>
> Reactions welcome. Dick and I will look at this further.
Best location so far: informative Annex B. Still under discussion, feedback welcome. Now tracking this issue as
[8.1] Mantis 1342: add X3D Unified Object Model (X3DUOM) to specification
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1342
>> c. Discussion of file encodings. Straightforward.
> The X3D Ontology (i.e. Turtle/RDF) likely is another file encoding... will discuss further.
>
>> d. Discussion of programming-language APIs.
>>
>> - 19775-3/4/5 for C, C++, C# binding. Document should be straightforward but getting additional champions(s) for implementations is a shared need. Alignment with major existing APIs (e.g. Unity3D) is especially valuable.
>> - 19775-6 noted maturity of implementation and multiple uses already, should be straightforward.
>>
>> Something to think about: sorting numerically in priority order ECMAScript, Java (as is), then python, C#, C++, C
> Absent objections, am ready to renumber the proposed programming-language bindings in order of specification maturity.
>
> Suggested sorted list will be provided next week.
Summary:
19776-1 XML
19776-2 ClassicVRML
19776-3 Compressed Binary Encoding
19776-4 Efficient Binary Encoding (new)
19776-5 JSON Encoding (new)
19776-6 Turtle/RDF/OWL Encoding (new)
19777-1 ECMAScript
19777-2 Java
19777-3 Python (new)
19777-4 C# (new)
19777-5 C++ (new)
19777-6 C (needed?)
Absent any further suggestions, will update our diagram.
[8.2] X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSpecificationRelationships.png
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99. Join!
Getting better every single week.There has been no better time to be a Web3D Consortium Member, much value continues to steadily emerge.
[99.0] Join the Web3D Consortium
https://www.web3d.org/join
Hoping everyone is personally "staying safe" as we progress into a new year.
Have fun with X3D! 8)
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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