[x3d-public] missing centers for the HAnim joints
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Sun Jun 4 13:26:21 PDT 2023
My suggestion at this point is to ignore geometry and focus on
scaling/correcting the LOA4 skeleton. I am willing to put effort into
that, removing skin and clothing from my old Humanoid4.x3d. But my
current Humanoid4.x3d appears to be a mess in view3dscene.
Here is a previous Humanoid4.x3d which appears OK in X_ITE and view3dscene,
attached. I guess my non-immutable process has confused new results.
Hmm! So, correcting this skeleton, scaling, might work? I do not yet have
a tool to inspect invisible skeleton/rigging. I have not looked at any
JinLOA4 skeletons. Would X3D-Edit help?
Joe looked at the attached humanoid, but provided an alternative one to
scale. I'm not sure my process for generating the attached humanoid is
recoverable, but I can look into it.
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 11:32 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Joe and John, thanks for careful consideration of additional values.
>
>
>
> First, seeking to understand: are you talking about table values for the
> following, which at first glance already appears to be complete?
>
>
>
> - Table A.10 — LOA‑4: Suggested Joint objects center values
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LevelOfArticulationFour
>
>
>
> Meanwhile there are indeed values missing from
>
>
>
> - X3D 4.0 XML Schema Documentation, simpleType *hanimJointNameValues*
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSchemaDocumentation4.0/x3d-4.0.html#LinkB6
>
> and
>
> - HAnim2 default values for Joint and Site (feature point) nodes
> - *Total hanimJointNameValues enumeration elements missing default
> values: 59 (out of 146 total)*
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/HAnim2DefaultValuesJointsFeaturePoints.txt
>
>
>
> Given identification of additional suggested values, when you think they
> are correct and ready, we can
>
>
>
> 1. Add an example model to the archives which illustrates these
> additional default values,
> 2. Update X3D XML Schema (and X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL, X3DPSAIL, X3D
> Tooltips) to include the added values,
> 3. Create a Mantis issue to formally add the agreed-upon values to
> future versions of HAnim2 and X3D4 specifications.
>
>
>
> p.s. hope you find that missing toe! :0
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2023 8:54 AM
> *To:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org
> >
> *Subject:* RE: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>
>
>
> Yes, John, can you send me your latest rescaled joint centers?
>
>
>
> As for the geometry, see that original structure is drawn as:
>
>
>
> *world coordinate system*
>
> Humanoid scale 0.025 0.025 0.025
>
> …
>
> Joint center x y z
>
> Segment
>
> Geometry translation x y z
>
> IFS … x y z, …
>
> …
>
>
>
> So the centers and geometry x y z coordinates are drawn in some arbitrary
> space about 40 or so times bigger than default humanoid space, same as
> default world coordinate system, then the centers and geometry are scaled
> in the Humanoid node to be drawn into default humanoid space. Each IFS
> segment geometry is drawn in some location in same coordinate space as
> original joint centers then translated into position.
>
>
>
> As you begin to accomplish more complex motions and detailed interactions
> you will find that you wish you had just drawn the thing directly in
> default Humanoid space. Sure the tool can do a lot of this for you but I
> think you will find In general, it will be easier and less guessing If you
> are using default Humanoid space (1 unit = one meter) than another
> arbitrary coordinate system because then you can define your work in
> realistic space with realistic measurements.
>
>
>
> So, to tune this otherwise fine example into default Humanoid space, the
> first step is to rescale the joint centers to default skeleton space, same
> as default Humanoid space. The rescaled skeleton should be drawn facing +z
> with 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet and +Y up.
>
>
>
> Next, for the segment geometry. Each IFS is drawn in the original
> coordinate space, scaled by the values in the Humanoid node scale value,
> then is contained in a transform with translation to move the IFS to the
> appropriate location. So the IFS is drawn in the same coordinate space as
> the joint center then the transform translation moves the IFS from where it
> was drawn to the correct location in Segment space, which is the same as
> joint center space.
>
>
>
> But Joint center space has been rescaled to draw the model skeleton
> directly in default Humanoid space.
>
> So since we wish to draw the ifs directly in skeleton space the first step
> is to rescale the ifs. Same as Joint center operation, each coordinate
> times scale factor. Next we get rid of the translation, same as joint
> center and ifs rescaling, then finally, translate the rescaled ifs by the
> rescaled translation values.
>
> Then the geometry should be in default Humanoid space, default skeleton
> space, and defalult segment space.
>
>
>
> Now the user code structure is:
>
> *world coordinate system*
>
> Humanoid scale 1 1 1
>
> …
>
> Joint center x’ y’ z’ (where the ‘ = standard Humanoid space)
>
> Segment
>
> Geometry translation 0 0 0
>
> IFS … x’ y’ z’, …
>
> …
>
>
>
> Everything will work better when the author can use direct realistic
> measurements to develop behaviors and interactions with other models and
> realistic environments.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, June 2, 2023 1:10 PM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>
>
>
> Correction, centers for hands and feet, minus one toe!
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’d like to say that I completed the missing centers for the HAnim joints,
> and this got translated from JinLOA4… to my scene with sites and segments.
> Joe has looked at the centers, and is anxious to get them installed in
> schema and object model.
>
>
>
> The next step is to get geometry scaling working followed by incorporation
> into schema and object model.
>
>
>
> I need additional assistance with HAnim geometry scaling if someone want
> to try it. I’m using some form of JinLOA4.x3d.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:10 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
>
>
>
> Here are our minutes for this week – steady progress in multiple
> directions. All participation in our weekly meetings is welcome.
>
>
>
> 1. *Participation*. The X3D Working Group meets weekly on Fridays
> 09-1000 Pacific on Web3D Consortium zoom channel. Telcon information:
>
>
>
> ·
> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GokFEUg1kg223pIlyw1acAfe3GWRDtMfNxgj%2BPXrGe8%3D&reserved=0>
>
> · https://zoom.us/j/148206572
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=a84efvN7CFuhLnmaI2%2Ffd5PIBcM%2BvXhQdPEinvfUlro%3D&reserved=0>
> Password 483805
>
> · https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *X3D 2023 goals. *Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in
> 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.
>
>
>
> a. Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many
> tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>
> b. Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2. *SIGGRAPH 2023 and Web3D 2023 conference planning updates*
>
>
>
> Continuing discussion on activities, dates, times, participation, and
> plans.
>
>
>
>
>
> · SIGGRAPH 2023, Los Angeles, 6-10 August
>
> · https://s2023.siggraph.org
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KQ%2B0PCHtpg4WMkqWZ5hzBnjE0AD9LmRVp6arGgAV0Wk%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Summary of Web3D events:
>
> · Celebrate 50 Years of SIGGRAPH Conferences with Web3D Consortium
>
> · https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-siggraph-2023
>
>
>
> Out of many topics, three Birds of a Feather (BOF) sessions are planned
> showing Web3D capabilities.
>
>
>
> · https://s2023.siggraph.org/program/birds-of-a-feather
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Fprogram%2Fbirds-of-a-feather&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTmBk%2FQ%2BmPLyWrwy58zqJ9g4a91jZ8ToC3068iVkiLY%3D&reserved=0>
>
> · https://s2023.siggraph.org/full-program/?filter1=sstype149
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Ffull-program%2F%3Ffilter1%3Dsstype149&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YZHSphQF1rWngVOhtimYZUjz5R0YbEGleg5fEWg9tVs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *Cartographic Visualization BOF*
>
> · Monday, August 7, Noon - 1:30 PM in the ACM SIGGRAPH Village
> Theater.
>
> · ACM SIGGRAPH Cartographic (Carto) Visualization Bird of a Feather
> (BOF) session will highlight the future of digital mapping to support our
> daily lives. Presenters will demonstrate various solutions for interactive
> cartographic display and international mapping.
>
>
>
> *X3D4 is Web3D Ready - A major upgrade to the Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics*
>
> · Monday, 7 August 2023 - 3:00 PM - 4:30 PM Pacific
>
> · Join us and learn more on how X3D4 has evolved to support
> current 3D technologies. X3D4 provides close support for the HTML5
> Recommendation, Khronos glTF Physically Based Rendering (PBR), and Web
> Audio API.
>
> · X3D4 is the basis of multiple file encodings and programming
> language bindings. The X3D4 Architecture Specification is Web ready, used
> in many 3D applications, highly mature, implemented, functionally complete,
> and undergoing final editorial review for International Standards
> Organization (ISO).
>
>
>
> *3D Web Interoperability for the Metaverse*
>
> · Tuesday, 8 August 2023 - 1:00 PM - 3:00 PM Pacific
>
> · To make the Metaverse fully interoperable with the WWW and the
> Standards ecosystem we need new Metaverse capabilities. Join us in
> discussions on how to enable robust patterns for interoperable content
> authoring and delivery workflows across the Web and now to flourish on a
> strong foundation of Visual graphics, Interface capabilities, Web
> Architecture and Compression/streaming technologies.
>
> · Topics include formation and next steps for 3D Web
> Interoperability Exploratory Group at Metaverse Standards Forum (MSF)
> https://metaverse-standards.org
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetaverse-standards.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UX7UTA7SH%2F%2BVW0IKQKUSDyHLqB8nlVrdkYhCVcbG%2ByE%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
> · Web3D 2023 Conference
>
> · Vicomtech San Sebastian Spain, 9-11 October
>
> · https://web3d.siggraph.org
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uSvkRMgjHBvK6NvwA5jxJq6lzrcgeAgwb%2B%2B1tPgp%2Bjw%3D&reserved=0>
>
> · https://web3d.siggraph.org/cfp
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fcfp&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g87gig5%2FsBT5iuWAMtAVnQsda2jYJ4Xf1cQ7vkpQ40U%3D&reserved=0>
>
> · Towards interconnectivity of Metaverses
>
> · The purpose of the 28th International ACM Conference on 3D Web
> Technology (Web3D 2023) is to study and share the principles and the latest
> advancements in connected 3D universes. Provide navigation metaphors that
> allow users to move seamlessly from one virtual world to another.
>
> · The goal of the conference and of the Web3D community, which has a
> rich history of developing technologies that enable the creation,
> transmission, access, interaction, sharing, and visualization of 3D
> universes. Bringing together a diverse group of individuals to share
> innovative and influential thoughts on how the metaverse can revolutionize
> the future of communications. This includes topics such as 3D applications
> and services accessible through a wide range of devices, from simple mobile
> phones to more complex systems such as AR/VR headsets, and heavily
> populated virtual worlds, especially those connected through high-speed,
> low-latency networks.
>
>
>
> Main important dates:
>
> § Paper Submission: June 15th, 2023
>
> § Notification of acceptance: July 27th, 2023
>
> § Final paper version: August 13th, 2023
>
> § Competition Submission: September 8, 2023
>
> § Conference dates: October 9th to 11th, 2023
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. INCITS and ISO Planning.
>
>
>
> Quarterly meeting next week. Updates sent. We have recommended that
> INCITS supports the further participation of MSF in ISO JTC-1 SC24.
>
>
>
> 4. MSF progress and planning. Description of 3D Web Interoperability
> above is helpful, we are using it. More details at SIGGRAPH and when the
> draft charter being produced by Exploratory Group goes public at MSF.
>
>
>
> 5. HAnim working group is making excellent progress, we had a
> several-hour meeting yesterday focused on IEEE 3D body processing and
> fashion issues.
>
>
>
> · Access to HAnim working group meetings is for members, as are
> minutes and hanim mailing list. Thus all conversations are in confidence
> and respect the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of unpublished materials
> by other organizations. Please see HAnim Working Group charter for details.
>
> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/humanoid-animation-hanim
>
> · Products of this working group, including (most) tools and
> schemas and references to published IEEE standards (for example) are all
> public.
>
>
>
> Have fun with X3D! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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