[x3d-public] missing centers for the HAnim joints

[John Carlson]

I have confirmed that removing skin from Humanoid4.x3d reveals missing toes
and joints in the foot.  So it seems like this should be priority 1.

I can reinvestigate foot joints in JinLOA4Canonical.x3d

Hmm!

John

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 3:26 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> My suggestion at this point is to ignore geometry and focus on
> scaling/correcting the LOA4 skeleton.  I am willing to put effort into
> that, removing skin and clothing from my old Humanoid4.x3d.   But my
> current Humanoid4.x3d appears to be a mess in view3dscene.
>
> Here is a previous Humanoid4.x3d which appears OK in X_ITE and
> view3dscene, attached.  I guess my non-immutable process has confused new
> results.  Hmm!  So, correcting this skeleton, scaling, might work?  I do
> not yet have a tool to inspect invisible skeleton/rigging.  I have not
> looked at any JinLOA4 skeletons. Would X3D-Edit help?
>
> Joe looked at the attached humanoid, but provided an alternative one to
> scale.  I'm not sure my process for generating the attached humanoid is
> recoverable, but I can look into it.
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 11:32 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> Joe and John, thanks for careful consideration of additional values.
>>
>>
>>
>> First, seeking to understand: are you talking about table values for the
>> following, which at first glance already appears to be complete?
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Table A.10 — LOA‑4: Suggested Joint objects center values
>>    -
>>    https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LevelOfArticulationFour
>>
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile there are indeed values missing from
>>
>>
>>
>>    - X3D 4.0 XML Schema Documentation, simpleType *hanimJointNameValues*
>>    -
>>    https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSchemaDocumentation4.0/x3d-4.0.html#LinkB6
>>
>> and
>>
>>    - HAnim2 default values for Joint and Site (feature point) nodes
>>    - *Total hanimJointNameValues enumeration elements missing default
>>    values: 59 (out of 146 total)*
>>    -
>>    https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/HAnim2DefaultValuesJointsFeaturePoints.txt
>>
>>
>>
>> Given identification of additional suggested values, when you think they
>> are correct and ready, we can
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Add an example model to the archives which illustrates these
>>    additional default values,
>>    2. Update X3D XML Schema (and X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL, X3DPSAIL, X3D
>>    Tooltips) to include the added values,
>>    3. Create a Mantis issue to formally add the agreed-upon values to
>>    future versions of HAnim2 and X3D4 specifications.
>>
>>
>>
>> p.s. hope you find that missing toe!  :0
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2023 8:54 AM
>> *To:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject:* RE: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, John, can you send me your latest rescaled joint centers?
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the geometry, see that original structure is drawn as:
>>
>>
>>
>> *world coordinate system*
>>
>> Humanoid scale 0.025 0.025 0.025
>>
>> …
>>
>>  Joint center x y z
>>
>>    Segment
>>
>>     Geometry translation x y z
>>
>>      IFS … x y z, …
>>
>> …
>>
>>
>>
>> So the centers and geometry x y z coordinates are drawn in some arbitrary
>> space about 40 or so times bigger than default humanoid space, same as
>> default world coordinate system, then the centers and geometry are scaled
>> in the Humanoid node to be drawn into default humanoid space. Each IFS
>> segment geometry is drawn in some location in same coordinate space as
>> original joint centers then translated into position.
>>
>>
>>
>> As you begin to accomplish more complex motions and detailed interactions
>> you will find that you wish you had just drawn the thing directly in
>> default Humanoid space. Sure the tool can do a lot of this for you but I
>> think you will find In general, it will be easier and less guessing If you
>> are using default Humanoid space (1 unit  = one meter) than another
>> arbitrary coordinate system because then you can define your work in
>> realistic space with realistic measurements.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, to tune this otherwise fine example into default Humanoid space, the
>> first step is to rescale the joint centers to default skeleton space, same
>> as default Humanoid space. The rescaled skeleton should be drawn facing +z
>> with 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet and +Y up.
>>
>>
>>
>> Next, for the segment geometry. Each IFS is drawn in the original
>> coordinate space, scaled by the values in the Humanoid node scale value,
>> then is contained in a transform with translation to move the IFS to the
>> appropriate location. So the IFS is drawn in the same coordinate space as
>> the joint center then the transform translation moves the IFS from where it
>> was drawn to the correct location in Segment space, which is the same as
>> joint center space.
>>
>>
>>
>> But Joint center space has been rescaled to draw the model skeleton
>> directly in default Humanoid space.
>>
>> So since we wish to draw the ifs directly in skeleton space the first
>> step is to rescale the ifs. Same as Joint center operation, each coordinate
>> times scale factor. Next we get rid of the translation, same as joint
>> center and ifs rescaling, then finally, translate the rescaled ifs by the
>> rescaled translation values.
>>
>> Then the geometry should be in default Humanoid space, default skeleton
>> space, and defalult segment space.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now the user code structure is:
>>
>> *world coordinate system*
>>
>> Humanoid scale 1 1 1
>>
>> …
>>
>>  Joint center x’ y’ z’ (where the ‘ = standard Humanoid space)
>>
>>    Segment
>>
>>     Geometry translation 0 0 0
>>
>>      IFS … x’ y’ z’, …
>>
>> …
>>
>>
>>
>> Everything will work better when the author can use direct realistic
>> measurements to develop behaviors and interactions with other models and
>> realistic environments.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Friday, June 2, 2023 1:10 PM
>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>>
>>
>>
>> Correction, centers for hands and feet, minus one toe!
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I’d like to say that I completed the missing centers for the HAnim
>> joints, and this got translated from JinLOA4… to my scene with sites and
>> segments.  Joe has looked at the centers, and is anxious to get them
>> installed in schema and object model.
>>
>>
>>
>> The next step is to get geometry scaling working followed by
>> incorporation into schema and object model.
>>
>>
>>
>> I need additional assistance with HAnim geometry scaling if someone want
>> to try it.  I’m using some form of JinLOA4.x3d.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:10 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are our minutes for this week – steady progress in multiple
>> directions.  All participation in our weekly meetings is welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   *Participation*.  The X3D Working Group meets weekly on Fridays
>> 09-1000 Pacific on Web3D Consortium zoom channel.  Telcon information:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·
>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GokFEUg1kg223pIlyw1acAfe3GWRDtMfNxgj%2BPXrGe8%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> ·     https://zoom.us/j/148206572
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=a84efvN7CFuhLnmaI2%2Ffd5PIBcM%2BvXhQdPEinvfUlro%3D&reserved=0>
>> Password 483805
>>
>> ·     https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   *X3D 2023 goals.  *Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in
>> 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.
>>
>>
>>
>> a.   Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many
>> tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>>
>> b.   Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
>> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.   *SIGGRAPH 2023 and Web3D 2023 conference planning updates*
>>
>>
>>
>> Continuing discussion on activities, dates, times, participation, and
>> plans.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ·     SIGGRAPH 2023, Los Angeles, 6-10 August
>>
>> ·     https://s2023.siggraph.org
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KQ%2B0PCHtpg4WMkqWZ5hzBnjE0AD9LmRVp6arGgAV0Wk%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> Summary of Web3D events:
>>
>> ·     Celebrate 50 Years of SIGGRAPH Conferences with Web3D Consortium
>>
>> ·     https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-siggraph-2023
>>
>>
>>
>> Out of many topics, three Birds of a Feather (BOF) sessions are planned
>> showing Web3D capabilities.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·     https://s2023.siggraph.org/program/birds-of-a-feather
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Fprogram%2Fbirds-of-a-feather&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTmBk%2FQ%2BmPLyWrwy58zqJ9g4a91jZ8ToC3068iVkiLY%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> ·     https://s2023.siggraph.org/full-program/?filter1=sstype149
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Ffull-program%2F%3Ffilter1%3Dsstype149&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YZHSphQF1rWngVOhtimYZUjz5R0YbEGleg5fEWg9tVs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Cartographic Visualization BOF*
>>
>> ·     Monday, August 7, Noon - 1:30 PM in the ACM SIGGRAPH Village
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>>
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>> (BOF) session will highlight the future of digital mapping to support our
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>>
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>>
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>> *3D Web Interoperability for the Metaverse*
>>
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>> ·        Topics include formation and next steps for 3D Web
>> Interoperability Exploratory Group at Metaverse Standards Forum (MSF)
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ·     Web3D 2023 Conference
>>
>> ·     Vicomtech San Sebastian Spain, 9-11 October
>>
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>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uSvkRMgjHBvK6NvwA5jxJq6lzrcgeAgwb%2B%2B1tPgp%2Bjw%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> ·     https://web3d.siggraph.org/cfp
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fcfp&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g87gig5%2FsBT5iuWAMtAVnQsda2jYJ4Xf1cQ7vkpQ40U%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> ·     Towards interconnectivity of Metaverses
>>
>> ·     The purpose of the 28th International ACM Conference on 3D Web
>> Technology (Web3D 2023) is to study and share the principles and the latest
>> advancements in connected 3D universes. Provide navigation metaphors that
>> allow users to move seamlessly from one virtual world to another.
>>
>> ·     The goal of the conference and of the Web3D community, which has a
>> rich history of developing technologies that enable the creation,
>> transmission, access, interaction, sharing, and visualization of 3D
>> universes. Bringing together a diverse group of individuals to share
>> innovative and influential thoughts on how the metaverse can revolutionize
>> the future of communications. This includes topics such as 3D applications
>> and services accessible through a wide range of devices, from simple mobile
>> phones to more complex systems such as AR/VR headsets, and heavily
>> populated virtual worlds, especially those connected through high-speed,
>> low-latency networks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Main important dates:
>>
>> §  Paper Submission: June 15th, 2023
>>
>> §  Notification of acceptance: July 27th, 2023
>>
>> §  Final paper version: August 13th, 2023
>>
>> §  Competition Submission: September 8, 2023
>>
>> §  Conference dates: October 9th to 11th, 2023
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3.   INCITS and ISO Planning.
>>
>>
>>
>> Quarterly meeting next week.  Updates sent.  We have recommended that
>> INCITS supports the further participation of MSF in ISO JTC-1 SC24.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4.   MSF progress and planning.  Description of 3D Web Interoperability
>> above is helpful, we are using it.  More details at SIGGRAPH and when the
>> draft charter being produced by Exploratory Group goes public at MSF.
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.   HAnim working group is making excellent progress, we had a
>> several-hour meeting yesterday focused on IEEE 3D body processing and
>> fashion issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        Access to HAnim working group meetings is for members, as are
>> minutes and hanim mailing list.  Thus all conversations are in confidence
>> and respect the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of unpublished materials
>> by other organizations.  Please see HAnim Working Group charter for details.
>>
>> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/humanoid-animation-hanim
>>
>> ·        Products of this working group, including (most) tools and
>> schemas and references to published IEEE standards (for example) are all
>> public.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have fun with X3D!  8)
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
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