[X3D-Ecosystem] containerField for HAnimSites and HAnimSegments in HAnimHumanoid required?

[John Carlson]

The last paragraph is the most important.


Here’s a model I’ve been using.  I believe the animation doesn’t work in
Sunrize:

https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/blend/JoeSkinTexcoordDisplacerKickUpdate2.x3d

But it doesn’t have a joints field, either.  Here’s a similar scene with
joints and segments fields, which should work:

https://github.com/coderextreme/jaminate/blob/main/Jaminate/app/JoeSkinUSE.x3d


I believe there’s only one HAnimDisplacer.  But the whole skin won’t
animate in the former scene in Sunrize.  Please confirm this, as I am on my
phone.

When I add the joints and segments fields, JoeSkin… animates.  But perhaps
i only needed to add a joints field, based on reviewing the archive.

A quick peek shows
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKickIndex.html
still
working.

Obviously, the joints require a containerField other than the default.  The
question is, do the HAnimHumanoid segments/sites field’s children also need
a containerField?  That’s where the conversation started.  I don’t think
that adding HAnimSites or HAnimSegments as direct children of HAnimHumanoid
should require a containerField.  That’s the subject under discussion.
Here’s something to experiment with which does have a
containerField=“segments” Try taking it out.
https://github.com/coderextreme/jaminate/blob/main/Jaminate/app/JinLOA4withUSE.x3d
I
am using CGE Model Viewer 5.2.0.

John

On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 12:11 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> It may be important to note AFAIAA, Sunrize now requires a HAnimHumanoid
> segments field to achieve animation for at least one model I tried.   I
> think Holger mailed me privately regarding this.  This may require updating
> a lot of models.  Whether this can be done automatically is now under
> discussion.
>
> Holger, perhaps you can either clarify or deny this?   Thanks!
>
> What’s important is we get the archive up-to-date with browser
> requirements.  I do not know why adding a segments field is a requirement,
> but when Holger added a HAnimSegment displacers field, adding a segments
> field became important.
>
> We hope that CGE model viewer will support HAnimDisplacers in
> HAnimSegments.  There are examples here:
>
> https://github.com/coderextreme/ci2had/tree/main/resources
>
> (Note that SingleMenuJin.x3d is still under construction, but the others
> should work).
>
> This may also affect the Blender loader and importer, as I’ve seen
> doppelgängers in recent loads/imports.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 10:56 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It’s pretty obvious that X3DJSAIL (there might be confusion about which
>> version I am using) does not fill in containerField automatically.  Neither
>> does CGE model viewer 5.2.0 for sites and segments when saving.  If they
>> would do this, then there wouldn’t be a problem.  If there’s a better open
>> source tool that fills in containerField for sites and segments
>> automatically, please point me at it.  My point is, that code would be the
>> same as auto-detection, which could be put into browsers.
>>
>> Additionally, if one is hand coding an X3DJSAIL app, one would have to
>> traverse the hierarchy finding all HAnimSite an HAnimSegment nodes and
>> adding USE nodes with a containerField.  This would have to appear in every
>> single HAnim X3DJSAIL program, instead of being programmed once in
>> X3DJSAIL.  If X3DJSAIL already has such a utility, please let me know, then
>> I don’t have to maintain my code.  If setContainerFieldOverride() is no
>> longer necessary, what replaces it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 7:44 AM Michalis Kamburelis <
>> michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There is no auto-detection of containerField in the X3D standard. I
>>> remember we talked about this, also on x3d-public mailing list. If
>>> such auto-detection of containerField will be added to the X3D
>>> standard (but I think it should not be added, see below), then CGE
>>> (and other X3D browsers) can implement this, in a consistent way.
>>>
>>> Trying to implement such auto-detection without spec, with each X3D
>>> browser doing something else, would lead to confusion of everyone.
>>>
>>> As for authors "throwing the towel": "brevity" is not a good enough
>>> argument to change something in a file format.
>>>
>>> - File format must also be consistent and simple to understand for
>>> implementors. The current rule for containerField is simple: it has
>>> node-specific default value, but if you want the parent field to be
>>> different, then write containerField in X3D XML.
>>> - And in case of X3D, real-life 3D models are mostly generated by
>>> software, not written by humans. The software should be capable of
>>> writing containerField="xxx" a zillion times without any issue.
>>>
>>> Please direct related questions to the x3d-public mailing list, not to
>>> me privately. We are discussing now something that touches what has
>>> been said on x3d-public lists, and what happens with X3D spec (which
>>> has to be coordinated, whatever the decision), and what is being done
>>> by Don/X3DJSAIL... Discussing it in private may easily lead to
>>> misunderstanding, when all interested parties know different subset of
>>> what others think/do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Michalis
>>>
>>> pt., 8 lis 2024 o 06:20 John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>> >
>>> > Don marked the “setContainerFieldOverride()” method as deprecated in
>>> X3DJSAIL.  If it’s removed without providing a way to set the
>>> containerField, then I will have difficulty getting Sunrize and CGE working
>>> with HAnim exports from X3DJSAIL.
>>> >
>>> > I don’t think that the method is required, because addSites() and
>>> addSegments() could set the containerField.  I have suggested this.  I
>>> don’t mail x3d-public because it’s like pouring water on hot grease.
>>> >
>>> > I can probably provide a Java example where CGE and Sunrize fail, but
>>> I’m actually trying to get them working, currently successfully by adding a
>>> containerField with setContainerFieldOverride().  These are old examples
>>> that don’t contain joints, sites and segments fields.
>>> >
>>> > What i will try to do at some point is create a Java program that
>>> fails to create an X3D file that works in CGE and Sunrize.  But if I do,
>>> will anyone care?
>>> >
>>> > This is low priority for me.
>>> >
>>> > The containerField for HAnimSite and HAnimSegment in HAnimHumanoid can
>>> be auto-detected based on node type, AFAIK.  This is what my email was
>>> about.
>>> >
>>> > Some people don’t have the desire to add all the necessary
>>> containerFields to HAnim to make CGE and Sunrize work and will just throw
>>> in the towel (give up).  Imagine something like 100+ segments or sites for
>>> a non-programmer.
>>> >
>>> > Ideally, the standard could be changed such that sites, segments and
>>> joints fields are not required.
>>> >
>>> > John
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 7:11 PM Michalis Kamburelis <
>>> michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Every node has a default containerField value (specified by X3D XML
>>> >> encoding spec and encoded in CGE). The containerField in X3D XML is
>>> >> required when the parent field you want to insert your node differs
>>> >> from the default containerField. When it does not differ, then you
>>> >> don't need to specify containerField.
>>> >>
>>> >> The above mechanism (in Castle Model Viewer and all other X3D
>>> >> browsers) follows X3D spec.
>>> >>
>>> >> Please post such questions to x3d-public, avoid writing email to me
>>> >> directly. Your statement "Don is turning on the screws making
>>> >> setContainerFieldOverrid" has unclear meaning. I don't know what Don
>>> >> is doing but I'm pretty sure he doesn't make something against X3D
>>> >> spec. These things are better discussed with all participants
>>> >> involved, instead of in private email threads, to avoid
>>> >> misunderstandings.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >> Michalis
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> czw., 7 lis 2024 o 16:28 John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> napisał(a):
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Michalis,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I question whether a containerField for sites and segments MFNode
>>> fields in HAnimHumanoid required in CGE Model Viewer?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Don is turning on the screws making setContainerFieldOverride
>>> deprecated in X3DJSAIL, so it would be desired that the containerField is
>>> not required (and I don't think it is).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thanks,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > John
>>>
>>
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