[X3D-Ecosystem] containerField for HAnimSites and HAnimSegments in HAnimHumanoid required?

[John Carlson]

Again, there is no “children” container field in HAnimHumanoid for XML,
even though CGE model viewer 5.2.0 brashly claims there is.

If I were to switch to JSON for X3DJSAIL, I would have to add
X3DJSONLD.java to all my apps.  Which might not be a bad option, just an
extra dependency.  Yes, I’ve offered X3DJSONLD.java as a gift to the Web3d
Consortium.

Here it is again, for anyone to use:
https://github.com/coderextreme/x3dschema/blob/main/X3DJSONLD.java

Note that you can use this to validate X3D JSON against XML schema, there’s
no need for a JSON schema at all!

There’s also this version, which may or may not be current or included in
X3DJSAIL:
https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/java/src/net/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD.java

Generally, most of the files i get are from sourceforge, and they are .x3d
though, so converting to .json would have to be done, just an extra step.

Do you see that I don’t like switching to the mouse?

John

On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 2:20 PM Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de> wrote:

> X3D XML encoding requires sometimes a custom container field when it is
> not the default, but it is important for X3D XML encoding to do so. If you
> don’t like containerField, you have the option to switch to X3D Classic
> VRML encoding or even JSON. A X3D file format must be precise in specifying
> all nodes and fields, some require this and some require that, but you must
> do what is specified, because it is needed, and everything is well thought
> out.
>
> Holger
>
> --
> Holger Seelig
> Leipzig, Germany
>
> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>
> Am 08.11.2024 um 21:06 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>
> The last paragraph is the most important.
>
>
> Here’s a model I’ve been using.  I believe the animation doesn’t work in
> Sunrize:
>
>
> https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/blend/JoeSkinTexcoordDisplacerKickUpdate2.x3d
>
> But it doesn’t have a joints field, either.  Here’s a similar scene with
> joints and segments fields, which should work:
>
>
> https://github.com/coderextreme/jaminate/blob/main/Jaminate/app/JoeSkinUSE.x3d
>
>
> I believe there’s only one HAnimDisplacer.  But the whole skin won’t
> animate in the former scene in Sunrize.  Please confirm this, as I am on my
> phone.
>
> When I add the joints and segments fields, JoeSkin… animates.  But perhaps
> i only needed to add a joints field, based on reviewing the archive.
>
> A quick peek shows
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKickIndex.html still
> working.
>
> Obviously, the joints require a containerField other than the default.
> The question is, do the HAnimHumanoid segments/sites field’s children also
> need a containerField?  That’s where the conversation started.  I don’t
> think that adding HAnimSites or HAnimSegments as direct children of
> HAnimHumanoid should require a containerField.  That’s the subject under
> discussion.  Here’s something to experiment with which does have a
> containerField=“segments” Try taking it out.
>
> https://github.com/coderextreme/jaminate/blob/main/Jaminate/app/JinLOA4withUSE.x3d I
> am using CGE Model Viewer 5.2.0.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 12:11 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It may be important to note AFAIAA, Sunrize now requires a HAnimHumanoid
>> segments field to achieve animation for at least one model I tried.   I
>> think Holger mailed me privately regarding this.  This may require updating
>> a lot of models.  Whether this can be done automatically is now under
>> discussion.
>>
>> Holger, perhaps you can either clarify or deny this?   Thanks!
>>
>> What’s important is we get the archive up-to-date with browser
>> requirements.  I do not know why adding a segments field is a requirement,
>> but when Holger added a HAnimSegment displacers field, adding a segments
>> field became important.
>>
>> We hope that CGE model viewer will support HAnimDisplacers in
>> HAnimSegments.  There are examples here:
>>
>> https://github.com/coderextreme/ci2had/tree/main/resources
>>
>> (Note that SingleMenuJin.x3d is still under construction, but the others
>> should work).
>>
>> This may also affect the Blender loader and importer, as I’ve seen
>> doppelgängers in recent loads/imports.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 10:56 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It’s pretty obvious that X3DJSAIL (there might be confusion about which
>>> version I am using) does not fill in containerField automatically.  Neither
>>> does CGE model viewer 5.2.0 for sites and segments when saving.  If they
>>> would do this, then there wouldn’t be a problem.  If there’s a better open
>>> source tool that fills in containerField for sites and segments
>>> automatically, please point me at it.  My point is, that code would be the
>>> same as auto-detection, which could be put into browsers.
>>>
>>> Additionally, if one is hand coding an X3DJSAIL app, one would have to
>>> traverse the hierarchy finding all HAnimSite an HAnimSegment nodes and
>>> adding USE nodes with a containerField.  This would have to appear in every
>>> single HAnim X3DJSAIL program, instead of being programmed once in
>>> X3DJSAIL.  If X3DJSAIL already has such a utility, please let me know, then
>>> I don’t have to maintain my code.  If setContainerFieldOverride() is no
>>> longer necessary, what replaces it?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 7:44 AM Michalis Kamburelis <
>>> michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is no auto-detection of containerField in the X3D standard. I
>>>> remember we talked about this, also on x3d-public mailing list. If
>>>> such auto-detection of containerField will be added to the X3D
>>>> standard (but I think it should not be added, see below), then CGE
>>>> (and other X3D browsers) can implement this, in a consistent way.
>>>>
>>>> Trying to implement such auto-detection without spec, with each X3D
>>>> browser doing something else, would lead to confusion of everyone.
>>>>
>>>> As for authors "throwing the towel": "brevity" is not a good enough
>>>> argument to change something in a file format.
>>>>
>>>> - File format must also be consistent and simple to understand for
>>>> implementors. The current rule for containerField is simple: it has
>>>> node-specific default value, but if you want the parent field to be
>>>> different, then write containerField in X3D XML.
>>>> - And in case of X3D, real-life 3D models are mostly generated by
>>>> software, not written by humans. The software should be capable of
>>>> writing containerField="xxx" a zillion times without any issue.
>>>>
>>>> Please direct related questions to the x3d-public mailing list, not to
>>>> me privately. We are discussing now something that touches what has
>>>> been said on x3d-public lists, and what happens with X3D spec (which
>>>> has to be coordinated, whatever the decision), and what is being done
>>>> by Don/X3DJSAIL... Discussing it in private may easily lead to
>>>> misunderstanding, when all interested parties know different subset of
>>>> what others think/do.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Michalis
>>>>
>>>> pt., 8 lis 2024 o 06:20 John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>> >
>>>> > Don marked the “setContainerFieldOverride()” method as deprecated in
>>>> X3DJSAIL.  If it’s removed without providing a way to set the
>>>> containerField, then I will have difficulty getting Sunrize and CGE working
>>>> with HAnim exports from X3DJSAIL.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don’t think that the method is required, because addSites() and
>>>> addSegments() could set the containerField.  I have suggested this.  I
>>>> don’t mail x3d-public because it’s like pouring water on hot grease.
>>>> >
>>>> > I can probably provide a Java example where CGE and Sunrize fail, but
>>>> I’m actually trying to get them working, currently successfully by adding a
>>>> containerField with setContainerFieldOverride().  These are old examples
>>>> that don’t contain joints, sites and segments fields.
>>>> >
>>>> > What i will try to do at some point is create a Java program that
>>>> fails to create an X3D file that works in CGE and Sunrize.  But if I do,
>>>> will anyone care?
>>>> >
>>>> > This is low priority for me.
>>>> >
>>>> > The containerField for HAnimSite and HAnimSegment in HAnimHumanoid
>>>> can be auto-detected based on node type, AFAIK.  This is what my email was
>>>> about.
>>>> >
>>>> > Some people don’t have the desire to add all the necessary
>>>> containerFields to HAnim to make CGE and Sunrize work and will just throw
>>>> in the towel (give up).  Imagine something like 100+ segments or sites for
>>>> a non-programmer.
>>>> >
>>>> > Ideally, the standard could be changed such that sites, segments and
>>>> joints fields are not required.
>>>> >
>>>> > John
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 7:11 PM Michalis Kamburelis <
>>>> michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Every node has a default containerField value (specified by X3D XML
>>>> >> encoding spec and encoded in CGE). The containerField in X3D XML is
>>>> >> required when the parent field you want to insert your node differs
>>>> >> from the default containerField. When it does not differ, then you
>>>> >> don't need to specify containerField.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The above mechanism (in Castle Model Viewer and all other X3D
>>>> >> browsers) follows X3D spec.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Please post such questions to x3d-public, avoid writing email to me
>>>> >> directly. Your statement "Don is turning on the screws making
>>>> >> setContainerFieldOverrid" has unclear meaning. I don't know what Don
>>>> >> is doing but I'm pretty sure he doesn't make something against X3D
>>>> >> spec. These things are better discussed with all participants
>>>> >> involved, instead of in private email threads, to avoid
>>>> >> misunderstandings.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Regards,
>>>> >> Michalis
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> czw., 7 lis 2024 o 16:28 John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>> napisał(a):
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Michalis,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I question whether a containerField for sites and segments MFNode
>>>> fields in HAnimHumanoid required in CGE Model Viewer?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Don is turning on the screws making setContainerFieldOverride
>>>> deprecated in X3DJSAIL, so it would be desired that the containerField is
>>>> not required (and I don't think it is).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Thanks,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > John
>>>>
>>>
>
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