[X3D-Public] Fwd: Re: [X3D] X3DHTML5meetingdiscussions:Declarative 3D interest group at W3C

[Joe D Williams]

> I know. I'm trying to be consilient so we avoid getting into
another blood bath. Lauren

The blood bath comes from simple misunderstandings.
I would discuss, but that the DOM is a perfect and appropriate 
solution for 3D is jocularity at this end. For sure it will work for 
simple stuff and maybe even hook up to physics and so forth, and to 
haptics, and all else, but it is missing several, I think, essentials 
for when you are aiming at interactive, realtime behaviors for complex 
systems which is exactly what is needed. Progress is being made. Even 
HTML has a event system now (see html5 spec).
Below that, it is a specially tuned engine that handles events and 
traverses the graph to produce the result. Yes, there is an ISO spec 
that defines this realtime (timestamped even) system. The simplicity 
of incorporating a reasonably performant engine will tell the tale of 
whether some neat realtime 3D can actually be 'part of the browser' 
tool. Another bloodbath happens when the same thing is called 
something different. THis happened before when a submission would have 
been greeted with much more acceptance if the basic vocabulary hadn't 
been changed, mainly, I think, due to lack of research about what is 
out there. The final bloodbath happens when the stuff that is authored 
won't upgrade to X3D. Then all is lost.
Thanks and Best,
Joe



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GLG" <info at 3dnetproductions.com>
To: <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] Fwd: Re: [X3D] 
X3DHTML5meetingdiscussions:Declarative 3D interest group at W3C


>
>
> I know. I'm trying to be consilient so we avoid getting into
> another blood bath. Lauren
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard at hiwaay.net]
>>Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:09 PM
>>To: info at 3dnetproductions.com; x3d-public at web3d.org
>>Subject: RE: [X3D-Public] Fwd: Re: [X3D] X3D
>>HTML5meetingdiscussions:Declarative 3D interest group at
>>W3C
>>
>>I hate to be blunt, Lauren, but I think there isn't a bats
>>chance in hell
>>they'll do that.  Bit between the teeth and all that.  So
>>far, that's been
>>the behavior we've seen for over fifteen years worth of
>>'new initiatives to
>>create 3D standards for the web'.  They have all failed.
>>
>>Ever ask yourself why every attempt to replace X3D fails?
>>
>>The discussion always starts with two points:
>>
>>a) X3D low adoption means it has failed
>>b) HTML models for 3D can be made general enough to do all
>>the jobs X3D can
>>do now.
>>
>>X3D is an order of magnitude too hard for HTML layout
>>specialists to work
>>with and they are the primary authors if the argument is
>>composible
>>compatibility with the HTML stack results in wider adoption
>>(wider than what
>>from a standing start: X3D of course).  The HTML part of
>>the stack is
>>irrelevant.  The Javascript/DOM isn't as you note.  CSS is
>>the bear in the
>>woods.  It is unclear to me how the CSS property system
>>offers the X3D stack
>>any advantages.
>>
>>I'm not for a moment suggesting the working group not
>>proceed.  They may
>>want to answer the question above first.
>>
>>len
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org [mailto:x3d-public-
>>bounces at web3d.org] On
>>Behalf Of GLG
>>Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:55 PM
>>To: x3d-public at web3d.org
>>Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] Fwd: Re: [X3D] X3D
>>HTML5meetingdiscussions:Declarative 3D interest group at
>>W3C
>>
>>>If they give us a good DOM to play with.
>>
>>Yes, in theory. ::crossfingers:: And, of course, an
>>accurate
>>implementation of the X3D spec. Otherwise, this could get
>>real messy in a hurry - this is no time for experimentation
>>with 3D standards - I hope "they" will stick to the wisdom
>>and the experience of the now tried and true, the
>>interminable labor that resulted in what we know actually
>>works and why. IMO any proposed changes to the spec should
>>be referred to the Web3D Consortium for proper evaluation.
>>I
>>am sure glad good Consortium people are involved to help
>>steer "things" in the right direction. Heck, it's about
>>time
>>I renew my membership (I hope others will too :). You guys
>>need and deserve all the help you can get.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Lauren
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Joe D Williams [mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net]
>>>Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:12 PM
>>>To: info at 3dnetproductions.com; x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] Fwd: Re: [X3D] X3D HTML5
>>>meetingdiscussions:Declarative 3D interest group at W3C
>>>
>>>> Please don't ask me to do brain surgery with a spoon.
>>>
>>>Maybe some new tools? SInce the end objective must be to
>>>represent the
>>>element as a live scriptable DOM tree then lots of stuff
>>>like passing
>>>data to and from the embedded context and controlling
>>>processing
>>>within the thing may be easier or at least more familiar
>>to
>>>many If
>>>they give us a good DOM to play with.
>>>But heck we all know how easy it is to do easy stuff with
>>>simple
>>>animations and interactions. As len said
>>>somewhen,"Rendering and
>>>behavioral fidelity are equal requirements in these
>>>systems". We now
>>>see that it is relatively common to get similar rendering
>>>fidelity
>>>between platforms, even approaching 'realistic' high
>>>fidelity in
>>>appearance even when an appearance is complex. And, so it
>>>will be with
>>>fidelity for simple behaviours. Heck maybe all somebody
>>has
>>>to learn
>>>is some 3DCSS.
>>>When behaviors get complex and require synchronization to
>>>achieve
>>>fidelity, our mastery of the DOM event system will define
>>>'realistic'
>>>to the user. Then, getting almost to what is needed for
>>>real hifi fun
>>>discover why the X3D SAI internal/external event system
>>>works like it
>>>does.
>>>
>>>Or, maybe some tech or practice that would shake up our
>>>event system
>>>'pipeline' like shaders changed the rendering pipeline.
>>>Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>X3D-Public mailing list
>>X3D-Public at web3d.org
>>http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> X3D-Public mailing list
> X3D-Public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org