[x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name

Sat Nov 28 10:57:54 PST 2020

We’re defining the JSON, not the tool, IMHO.

John

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 12:31 PM Christoph Valentin <
christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:

> hi John.
>
> Understand.
>
> All I can remember, when I did my trials with x3d, then some players
> insisted on the "name" attribute, others considered it an error, at least a
> warning.
>
> Using <Script> was a compromise that just worked.
>
> So lets wait the test results, before defining the behavior of relay
> software between XML and JSON (which should be applicable to ALL browsers
> and users).
>
> I do not know if I'm the only one who used the <Script>- Woraround.
>
> kr
>
> --
> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
> gesendet.
> Am 28.11.20, 19:09 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>
>> I don’t see JSON schema moving through IETF quickly, and last I heard,
>> they were going to standardize 4 different drafts of JSON schema.   They
>> are even seeking assistance when taking the draft to IETF.  Volunteers?
>>
>> X3D does not have a standardized JSON schema.   The best we have for USE
>> might work across all versions of X3D.   I do not know the history of USE.
>>
>> It is my intention to maintain a JSON schema for each X3DUOM versions.
>>
>> I don’t think we’re putting validation in the standard, that’s up to the
>> vendors.
>>
>> I don’t ever recall seeing X3D XML schema in a standard?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> as far as I think to understand the IETF community, the robustness
>>> principle is meant to be applied for cases, when the standard is fuzzy.
>>>
>>> So it applies to our case here.
>>>
>>> You can do a very strict validation, if a standard
>>>
>>>    - is well-defined, well-accepted, well-deployed and precise
>>>    - is not subject to future changes nor has got a past
>>>
>>> Otherwise every validation must accept compromises
>>>
>>> Agree?
>>>
>>> KR
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>>
>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 18:36 Uhr
>>> *Von:* "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>> *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name
>>> Should one accept SQL injection?   No!
>>>
>>> Note:  I have not added any validation to X3DOM or X_ITE, and do not
>>> expect to.
>>>
>>> I do not expect to strip out validation from X3DJSONLD anytime soon.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:26 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I accept everything, validation is useless.   That’s why I provide a
>>>> way for the user to override :).
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:22 AM Christoph Valentin <
>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi all
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know Jon Postel's robustness principle?
>>>>>
>>>>> Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send out.
>>>>>
>>>>> means: add the name attribute when sending
>>>>> keep the name attribute when forwarding/proxying
>>>>> ignore the name attribute when receiving.
>>>>> kr
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>>> gesendet.
>>>>> Am 28.11.20, 17:58 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, if USE is specified in a proto instance in X3D JSON, then
>>>>>> X3DJSONLD and related tools will not validate a name property in the node.
>>>>>>   I suggest X3dToJson.xslt reject the spurious name when generating JSON.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>> From: Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>>> Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>> To: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>> CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I felt free to provide an example scene in three flavors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The prototype renders a little pig that says "Eatme!", when you touch
>>>>>> it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx" name="yyy"/>    WITH name
>>>>>> attribute - standards compliant
>>>>>> Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/>  WITHOUT name attribute
>>>>>> Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/>  WORKAROUND - works for all browsers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with all three versions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Download the .zip file at
>>>>>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/     I
>>>>>> provide it by a GPLv3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it to your benchmark
>>>>>> tests, if you like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30 Uhr
>>>>>> *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>>> *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>> Hi Christoph,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful to try a USE
>>>>>> ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Andreas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This bug is common to many X3D players (even classical non-WebGL X3D
>>>>>>> players).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was used to use following workaround, which worked for all
>>>>>>> relevant players:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I will actually instantiate a
>>>>>>> <Script> node with USE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KR,
>>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Montag, 23. November 2020 um 00:00 Uhr
>>>>>>> *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *An:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>> *Betreff:* [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>>> Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim did not work properly
>>>>>>> for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically have a ProtoInstance
>>>>>>> statement with a USE attribute but without the corresponding name attribute
>>>>>>> defining the actual node type. However, x3dom expects a name attribute with
>>>>>>> every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones, to be able to insert the
>>>>>>> appropriate node.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The xml spec  at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> does not address USE of ProtoInstances but all examples always have
>>>>>>> a name attribute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, in my quite extensive testing of Protos, I did not come across
>>>>>>> other examples of ProtoInstance elements without a name attribute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, the name attribute is not strictly necessary for USE
>>>>>>> ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted node can be determined from
>>>>>>> the referenced DEF node. But having the name attribute makes ProtoInstance
>>>>>>> elements more similar to regular nodes. So I think not requiring the name
>>>>>>> attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be explicitly allowed in the xml
>>>>>>> spec., but still be encouraged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not think the xml spec. would be otherwise affected by V.4 ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best, Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing
>>>>>>> list x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing
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>>>>>
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