[x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name

Sat Nov 28 11:58:59 PST 2020

In particular, if we have a true standard, X_ITE examples should work in
X3DOM and vica versa.   We’ve made good progress at that.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:34 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, everything needs to be tested.   My recent test cases apply to HAnim.
>   I encourage people as we produce HAnim LOA4 examples to test them.   We
> should get back to that next week, I hope.
>
> John
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:04 PM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> That's great.
>>
>> And I felt free to provide three .x3d files in order to test the
>> translators as well as classical X3D players, as Andreas asked me.
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>> Am 28.11.20, 19:48 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Christopher, I have no real control over XML to JSON, even though I have
>>> a little used tool which does it.
>>>
>>> My primary goal is rendering JSON as other “encodings.”
>>>
>>> So if something doesn’t match my schema, it gets flagged.   If we allow
>>> name along with USE, that means I have to put special-case code in my
>>> schema generating tool.  My goal is to stop bad JSON at its source, namely
>>> X3dToJson.xslt.
>>>
>>> In other words, I don’t want to write schema that won’t appear in the
>>> standard (TBD).
>>>
>>> It is much easier for humans to understand consistent rules, and not a
>>> bunch of if statements testing for whether I’m dealing with a ProtoInstance
>>> and therefore I need to do something different.
>>>
>>> Let’s make one rule and apply it to all instances of name and USE in a
>>> node.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 12:31 PM Christoph Valentin <
>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi John.
>>>>
>>>> Understand.
>>>>
>>>> All I can remember, when I did my trials with x3d, then some players
>>>> insisted on the "name" attribute, others considered it an error, at least a
>>>> warning.
>>>>
>>>> Using <Script> was a compromise that just worked.
>>>>
>>>> So lets wait the test results, before defining the behavior of relay
>>>> software between XML and JSON (which should be applicable to ALL browsers
>>>> and users).
>>>>
>>>> I do not know if I'm the only one who used the <Script>- Woraround.
>>>>
>>>> kr
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>> gesendet.
>>>> Am 28.11.20, 19:09 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> I don’t see JSON schema moving through IETF quickly, and last I heard,
>>>>> they were going to standardize 4 different drafts of JSON schema.   They
>>>>> are even seeking assistance when taking the draft to IETF.  Volunteers?
>>>>>
>>>>> X3D does not have a standardized JSON schema.   The best we have for
>>>>> USE might work across all versions of X3D.   I do not know the history of
>>>>> USE.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is my intention to maintain a JSON schema for each X3DUOM versions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think we’re putting validation in the standard, that’s up to
>>>>> the vendors.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t ever recall seeing X3D XML schema in a standard?
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as far as I think to understand the IETF community, the robustness
>>>>>> principle is meant to be applied for cases, when the standard is fuzzy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it applies to our case here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can do a very strict validation, if a standard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - is well-defined, well-accepted, well-deployed and precise
>>>>>>    - is not subject to future changes nor has got a past
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise every validation must accept compromises
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KR
>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 18:36 Uhr
>>>>>> *Von:* "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>>> *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>> Should one accept SQL injection?   No!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note:  I have not added any validation to X3DOM or X_ITE, and do not
>>>>>> expect to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not expect to strip out validation from X3DJSONLD anytime soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:26 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I accept everything, validation is useless.   That’s why I
>>>>>>> provide a way for the user to override :).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:22 AM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you know Jon Postel's robustness principle?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send
>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> means: add the name attribute when sending
>>>>>>>> keep the name attribute when forwarding/proxying
>>>>>>>> ignore the name attribute when receiving.
>>>>>>>> kr
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>>>>>> gesendet.
>>>>>>>> Am 28.11.20, 17:58 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, if USE is specified in a proto instance in X3D JSON, then
>>>>>>>>> X3DJSONLD and related tools will not validate a name property in the node.
>>>>>>>>>   I suggest X3dToJson.xslt reject the spurious name when generating JSON.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>>> From: Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>>>>> To: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I felt free to provide an example scene in three flavors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The prototype renders a little pig that says "Eatme!", when you
>>>>>>>>> touch it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx" name="yyy"/>    WITH name
>>>>>>>>> attribute - standards compliant
>>>>>>>>> Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/>  WITHOUT name attribute
>>>>>>>>> Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/>  WORKAROUND - works for all
>>>>>>>>> browsers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with all three versions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Download the .zip file at
>>>>>>>>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/     I
>>>>>>>>> provide it by a GPLv3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it to your benchmark
>>>>>>>>> tests, if you like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30 Uhr
>>>>>>>>> *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>>>>> Hi Christoph,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful to try a USE
>>>>>>>>> ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Andreas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This bug is common to many X3D players (even classical non-WebGL
>>>>>>>>>> X3D players).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was used to use following workaround, which worked for all
>>>>>>>>>> relevant players:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I will actually
>>>>>>>>>> instantiate a <Script> node with USE.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> KR,
>>>>>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Montag, 23. November 2020 um 00:00 Uhr
>>>>>>>>>> *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> *An:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>>>>> *Betreff:* [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
>>>>>>>>>> Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim did not work properly
>>>>>>>>>> for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically have a ProtoInstance
>>>>>>>>>> statement with a USE attribute but without the corresponding name attribute
>>>>>>>>>> defining the actual node type. However, x3dom expects a name attribute with
>>>>>>>>>> every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones, to be able to insert the
>>>>>>>>>> appropriate node.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The xml spec  at
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> does not address USE of ProtoInstances but all examples always
>>>>>>>>>> have a name attribute.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, in my quite extensive testing of Protos, I did not come
>>>>>>>>>> across other examples of ProtoInstance elements without a name attribute.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the name attribute is not strictly necessary for USE
>>>>>>>>>> ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted node can be determined from
>>>>>>>>>> the referenced DEF node. But having the name attribute makes ProtoInstance
>>>>>>>>>> elements more similar to regular nodes. So I think not requiring the name
>>>>>>>>>> attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be explicitly allowed in the xml
>>>>>>>>>> spec., but still be encouraged.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do not think the xml spec. would be otherwise affected by V.4 ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best, Andreas
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public
>>>>>>>>>> mailing list x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing
>>>>>>>>> list x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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