[x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Mon Dec 5 19:59:23 PST 2022
As far as reducing precision/increasing precision. I'd like to stick with
similar precision. Don indicated, IIRC, we should at least provide the
same or more precision, with more being desirable.
One argument I can see is we don't want the sized of the files ballooning.
John
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 6:59 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html
>
>
>
> This example is not working yet on the site. No skin, and it looks messed
> up.
>
>
>
> OF course I have done some work on the thing, so let’s just toss that one
> and restart with the attached?
>
>
>
> This was transcoded from .x3dv into the xml and I was very surprised to
> find out that numbers have changed. Please don’t change or refine numbers
> in my user code. Esp just to change resolution from ok and usable to silly,
> unless it is actually needed. Looking at the converted user code, it was
> inflated fantastically by the diff:
>
>
>
> Original:
>
> coord DEF TheSkinCoord Coordinate { point [
>
> 0.0 1.77 0.0, 0.0 1.665 0.09,
>
> -0.033 1.62 0.087, 0.033 1.62 0.087
>
>
>
> Converted:
>
> <Coordinate DEF='JoeSkinCoord' point='
>
> 0 1.7699999809265137 0 0 1.6649999618530273 0.090000003576278687
> -0.032999999821186066 1.6200000047683716 0.086999997496604919
>
>
>
> So, to me, if I put in 0.087 I don’t want to get 0.086999997496604919
> back.
>
> Or, why do I really want that expansion of printed resolution from 2 to 18
> digits?
>
>
>
> I hope we can agree that this is, on the basic Humanoid level, needless
> precision. Believe it or not, some of this stuff is worth reading with the
> original intent instead of padding. Please don’t change my numbers in the
> transcoding process. Especially for examples showing specifications, we
> will naturally want to use the same numbers as might appear in some printed
> table in reasonable resolution.
>
> Please don’t touch my numbers😊
>
> Thanks and Best,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Monday, December 5, 2022 3:09 PM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>; h-anim at web3d.org
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
> haveno way to assign textures
>
>
>
> Found in note in Mantis 1410: There was an issue with
> "HAnimHAnimHumanoid". Misspelling?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:32 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> John,
>
>
>
> 1. Please contact Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele (email or web3d
> contact page) regarding access problems. There is a 2-step login for
> members. Please do not modify any Mantis issues, we use mailing list for
> discussions.
>
>
>
> 2. There is another “Joe” example from 2004 that (real) Joe and I have
> been working on upgrading to X3D.
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Skeleton
> Site Skin Salute Walk
> - Attempting to show skeleton, skin, sites and animation
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html
>
>
>
> 3. If you want to learn X3D Textures, you are welcome to use book slides
> videos examples:
>
> - *X3D Example Archives: *X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 05
> Appearance Material Textures
> -
> https://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter05AppearanceMaterialTextures/index.html
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 5, 2022 12:25 PM
> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>;
> h-anim at web3d.org
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
> have no way to assign textures
>
>
>
> I have tried several times to get into Mantis today. It's not unusual for
> me not to get in. I will use "send a comment" in the future.
>
>
>
> 1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes. As you
> say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.
>
>
>
> 2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:
>
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
>
>
>
> 3. I haven't mastered Textures yet. Waiting for integration with
> Stability.AI, midJourney, etc. Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen
> Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've
> only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a
> fragment shader.
>
>
>
> 4. I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do
> some while I am walking!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> John, the mantis issue includes two examples already.
>
>
>
> A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to
> spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec). That is
> why his example is able to use textures, and that approach seems
> appropriate for X3D4.
>
>
>
> B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with descendant
> HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry. That is a different
> approach, long valid, with similar visual effects as "skin" geometry.
>
>
>
> If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example
> archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing
> list. Thanks for your scrutiny and development efforts.
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM
> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>;
> h-anim at web3d.org <h-anim at web3d.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
> have no way to assign textures
>
>
>
> NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
>
>
>
> Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex. If
> one wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be
> great. You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have
> identified a problem with annex.
>
>
>
> I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field.
> I haven’t checked Joe Kick yet.
>
>
>
> But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too. We’re playing the
> long game. I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.
>
>
>
> A skin field is welcome! I will add to Mantis.
>
>
>
> CFE?
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi John. We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the specifications.
>
>
>
> The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way
> to assign textures to skin geometry.
>
>
>
> The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that
> fixes the problem.
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM
> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>;
> h-anim at web3d.org
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
> have no way to assign textures
>
>
>
> There is no derivation that i see.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don, I did notice that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2 example.
> I will check the repository again tomorrow.
>
>
>
> Is Joe Kick ok?
>
>
>
> Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!)
> and found an important problem.no
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf7787597ce0b4017007808dad6fec874%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058687044148718%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KZ%2BrlWElgClAwEQZe0xkbrTaBfrj0Sr6pOJ4CWztYek%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
> · Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to
> assign textures
>
> · https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410
>
>
>
> HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures because
> Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child node
> hierarchy.
>
> * X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid
> *
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
>
> Relevant field is
> MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet,
> IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
>
> It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA
> nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not
> permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either
> Material or ImageTexture.
>
>
>
> The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in
> X_ITE (and X3DOM and BSContact) players.
>
> * X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick
> *
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
>
> Excerpt:
> <Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'>
> <Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'>
> <Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'
> emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/>
> <ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'
> url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png"
> '/>
> <!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from
> SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] -->
> <TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/>
> </Appearance>
> <IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.
> <Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.
> <TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/>
> </IndexedFaceSet>
> </Shape>
>
>
>
> HAnim specification says
>
> * HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid
> *
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
>
> sequence<Object> skin [] *[indexed mesh objects as defined by the
> representation]*
>
>
>
> An example “representation" for HAnim is X3D.
>
> Possible fix:
> a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's
> example)
> b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must
> contain one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.). That will allow identical
> geometry capabilities that are currently clearly defined.
>
>
>
> Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem
> because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that is
> animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin
> field. For example,
>
> · X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4
>
> · Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics
> tool, then converted into an X3D HAnim model.
>
> ·
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html
>
>
>
>
>
> We recommend
>
> · Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording “*[indexed mesh objects
> as defined by the representation]”*
>
> · to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that
> textures are possible on animated human skin.
>
> · Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it
> is feasible and expected.
>
>
>
> Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.
>
>
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
>
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