[x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures
Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
brutzman at nps.edu
Tue Dec 6 02:16:43 PST 2022
Joe, I thought we made excellent progress on improving both diagnostics and tools in last session. It was also impressive to see how well the view3dscene converter did, we will likely have some suggestions for Michalis on this when our conversion review and improvements are complete.
Prefer not to start over – we are three hours into that task, and also found a specification gap! Hoping to continue, informed by your original model in VRML.
Each correction we make that fixes or prevents similar future difficulties gets us another tiny step forward to high-quality HAnim modeling and animation. It is further great to finally be able to use X3D-Edit again to test and apply these fixes.
* X3D-Edit 4.0 Beta Distribution, 2 December 2022
* https://sourceforge.net/projects/x3d/files
Onward we go, have fun with X3D HAnim.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 5:00 PM
To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>; h-anim at web3d.org
Subject: RE: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures
NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html
This example is not working yet on the site. No skin, and it looks messed up.
OF course I have done some work on the thing, so let’s just toss that one and restart with the attached?
This was transcoded from .x3dv into the xml and I was very surprised to find out that numbers have changed. Please don’t change or refine numbers in my user code. Esp just to change resolution from ok and usable to silly, unless it is actually needed. Looking at the converted user code, it was inflated fantastically by the diff:
Original:
coord DEF TheSkinCoord Coordinate { point [
0.0 1.77 0.0, 0.0 1.665 0.09,
-0.033 1.62 0.087, 0.033 1.62 0.087
Converted:
<Coordinate DEF='JoeSkinCoord' point='
0 1.7699999809265137 0 0 1.6649999618530273 0.090000003576278687 -0.032999999821186066 1.6200000047683716 0.086999997496604919
So, to me, if I put in 0.087 I don’t want to get 0.086999997496604919 back.
Or, why do I really want that expansion of printed resolution from 2 to 18 digits?
I hope we can agree that this is, on the basic Humanoid level, needless precision. Believe it or not, some of this stuff is worth reading with the original intent instead of padding. Please don’t change my numbers in the transcoding process. Especially for examples showing specifications, we will naturally want to use the same numbers as might appear in some printed table in reasonable resolution.
Please don’t touch my numbers😊
Thanks and Best,
Joe
From: John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 3:09 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures
Found in note in Mantis 1410: There was an issue with "HAnimHAnimHumanoid". Misspelling?
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:32 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
John,
1. Please contact Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele (email or web3d contact page) regarding access problems. There is a 2-step login for members. Please do not modify any Mantis issues, we use mailing list for discussions.
2. There is another “Joe” example from 2004 that (real) Joe and I have been working on upgrading to X3D.
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Skeleton Site Skin Salute Walk
* Attempting to show skeleton, skin, sites and animation
* https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html
3. If you want to learn X3D Textures, you are welcome to use book slides videos examples:
* X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 05 Appearance Material Textures
* https://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter05AppearanceMaterialTextures/index.html <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fx3dgraphics.com%2Fexamples%2FX3dForWebAuthors%2FChapter05AppearanceMaterialTextures%2Findex.html&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C968b0405bdc1487a5b1f08dad72525d1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058851968145310%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9wft3MkXHg0WAFFgOyFOeTT7nLtrgBh%2BJMnnWSwbsU8%3D&reserved=0>
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> >
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 12:25 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> >
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ) <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> >; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
I have tried several times to get into Mantis today. It's not unusual for me not to get in. I will use "send a comment" in the future.
1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes. As you say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.
2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
3. I haven't mastered Textures yet. Waiting for integration with Stability.AI, midJourney, etc. Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a fragment shader.
4. I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do some while I am walking!
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
John, the mantis issue includes two examples already.
A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec). That is why his example is able to use textures, and that approach seems appropriate for X3D4.
B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with descendant HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry. That is a different approach, long valid, with similar visual effects as "skin" geometry.
If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing list. Thanks for your scrutiny and development efforts.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> >
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> >
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ) <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> >; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org> <h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org> >
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex. If one wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be great. You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have identified a problem with annex.
I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field. I haven’t checked Joe Kick yet.
But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too. We’re playing the long game. I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.
A skin field is welcome! I will add to Mantis.
CFE?
John
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
Hi John. We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the specifications.
The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way to assign textures to skin geometry.
The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that fixes the problem.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> >
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ) <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> >; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
There is no derivation that i see.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> > wrote:
Don, I did notice that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2 example. I will check the repository again tomorrow.
Is Joe Kick ok?
Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?
John
On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!) and found an important problem.no <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C968b0405bdc1487a5b1f08dad72525d1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058851968145310%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CcmRfpT2QyKuRfs5oIp%2FYzB4KCoKeFRTjNF1gfhOcu0%3D&reserved=0>
* Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
* https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410
HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures because Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child node hierarchy.
* X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid
* https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
Relevant field is
MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet, IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either Material or ImageTexture.
The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in X_ITE (and X3DOM and BSContact) players.
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick
* <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
Excerpt:
<Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'>
<Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'>
<Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6' emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/>
<ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'
url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" " <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png%22> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png" '/>
<!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] -->
<TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/>
</Appearance>
<IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.
<Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.
<TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/>
</IndexedFaceSet>
</Shape>
HAnim specification says
* HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid
* <https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
sequence<Object> skin [] [indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]
An example “representation" for HAnim is X3D.
Possible fix:
a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's example)
b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must contain one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.). That will allow identical geometry capabilities that are currently clearly defined.
Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that is animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin field. For example,
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4
* Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics tool, then converted into an X3D HAnim model.
* https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html
We recommend
* Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording “[indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]”
* to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that textures are possible on animated human skin.
* Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it is feasible and expected.
Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>
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