[x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review SvgTexture, X3D Application Stack
GL
info at 3dnetproductions.com
Sun Sep 25 11:24:30 PDT 2022
John, BS Contact comes with a proto called 'CompositeTexture3D' (see nodes.wrl) which we have used extensively to create camera effects. You simply indicate the position, fieldOfView and orientation of the source 'camera' and then it would allow the live display of what it sees on an inworld screen at the original location.
texture DEF Scene CompositeTexture3D {}
I recall having issues with it at about the same time when Flash movies support was withdrawn in some browsers. Not sure if it was related or what the status of this feature is today, but hopefully that's something for you to look at, because we used to be able to do exactly that what you describe.
Gina Lauren
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* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *
* * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *
* 3D Net Productions 3dnetproductions.com *
From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org] On Behalf Of John Carlson
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:46 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review SvgTexture, X3D Application Stack
Understood. I thought i made it clear that there’s no “feedback (infinite) loop” in X3D3 that allows behavior not unlike playing Sims 1 inside Sims 2. I am more trying to incorporate textures from other running applications, similar to what Zoom, etc. do.
Ideally, one could see through a “magic mirror” or “portal” (Croquet) from one Scene to an independent scene. Similar to a hyperjump, but the target scene is “live” in the source scene. Feel free to replace scene with virtual world.
The reason to go through a MovieTexture instead of only an Inline is for security purposes and to stop infinite propagation, especially of audio. There would probably be a requirement to disallow intersecting textures.
Red-pill warning.
One could consider dragging a Stargate through a Stargate. What happens when i have a virtual world in my inventory (an inline, for example)?
One might consider viewing XMLSpy inside the Metaverse.
I believe this kind of stuff is called “embedding” as popularized by Office.
So things like audio feedback should definitely be disallowed for X3D4.
On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 6:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
Please be advised that X3D absolutely allows loading more X3D within a parent X3D model via the Inline node.
Also worthy of note is that recursive reloading is expressly forbidden wherever it might occur, in order to preclude infinite loops and security flaws.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2022 12:08 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>; X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review SvgTexture, X3D Application Stack
NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
Agreed on most points. SVG renders to an image or canvas, so I’m guessing that one can capture image frames to place in a MovieTexture.
I recognized that X3D does not provide X3D in X3D. I understand that one may wish to avoid feedback loops. Many tools successfully handle them.
HTML5 also avoids HTML5 in HTML5, AFAIK.
There are probably workarounds!
I guess I’m just seeking a way to include external application’s windows (read-only) within X3D.
Say a use case or user story is capturing a Java/Swing application window for inclusion in a MovieTexture. I create a static movie texture in X3D. I’m asking for a dynamic movie texture (live), similar to WebRTC. Since the web already supports live video, i suggest someone (me or Christoph Valentin) look into how webapps do it.
John
On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 1:00 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
Hi Doug. Regarding WebAssembly, I think it fits as one of many many technologies available to Web authors, represented in the X3D Application Stack – Layers and Alternatives diagram in the row Programming Libraries, Web authoring tools and 3D translators.
* https://webassembly.org <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebassembly.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C7b39d12b82984d1d2ad108da9e6019d9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637996432852179194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LslKNB5PeJpKExq6%2B%2B5tbiZg%2F6xw92C1wrqGqep%2BrVw%3D&reserved=0>
Hi John. glTF is a format for 3D models, and that is why you find multiple ways to use glTF2 as a 3D model in the X3D Specification. glTF itself is not suitable as any kind of format to provide an image texture.
1. First: glTF models can be loaded via Inline
· X3D Part 1: Architecture and base components, 9 Networking component, 9.4.2 Inline
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#Inline
The run-time system can support any number of 3D model resource types as long as those follow the abstract model definition (see 2.[RFC2077]), provide a registered content type ( e.g., model/x3d-xml, model/gltf-bin, model/stl, etc.), and can be determined with some form of content negotiation (see 2.[RFC2616]). The run-time system must support at least one X3D type ( e.g., model/x3d-xml) but can also support and negotiate any number of X3D encodings and (optionally) non-X3D representation formats. Support for loading glTF assets (see 2.[GLTF]) also requires support for Shape component level 2 and Lighting component level 4.
· Table 9.3 — Networking component support levels
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#t-supportLevels
· Level 5, Model support
Support for glTF models in Inline nodes, in .gltf (model/gltf+json) and .glb (model/gltf-binary) formats.
Requires support for Shape component level 2 and Lighting component level 3.
Minimum required glTF support:
o transformation hierarchy,
o meshes,
o physical materials,
o loading of external binary data referenced from .gltf files ( e.g., for vertex coordinates).
2. Second: glTF2 rendering techniques are fully integrated into native X3D4 lighting and rendering models, thus encouraging compatible modeling and conversion of glTF models in X3D.
· X3D Part 1: Architecture and base components, 12 Shape component, 12.4.6 PhysicalMaterial
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#PhysicalMaterial
The PhysicalMaterial node specifies surface material properties for associated geometry nodes. It indicates that a physical lighting model should be used for the computation. 17 Lighting component contains a detailed description of the X3D lighting model equations.
Physical interpretation of the material parameters follows. These parameter descriptions closely follow the glTF specification (see [glTF]).
NOTE The physical material properties of X3D are also deliberately consistent with the glTF 2.0 material definition. Effectively, converting (in either direction) between X3D PhysicalMaterial and glTF 2.0 material definitions is equivalent.
· also 12.4.10 UnlitMaterial
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#UnlitMaterial
Also please be aware that we are not pursuing a specific design for SvgTexture or related new-node possibilities at this time. Rather we are performing our “final final” review of X3D4 issues in Mantis. Thaat issue asks whether SVG ought to be included among allowed url file types for ImageTexture. Currently the rationale appears to be no, continuing comment welcome. The X3D Working Group will finalize resolution of Web3D Consortium comments on X3D4 Draft International Standard Ballot on Friday October 7.
· Mantis 1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture
· https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400
More documentation about glTF and X3D correspondences is found in recent spreadsheet-comparison efforts by X3D Working Group. I have moved both of these documents from other locations into our central Web3D sourceforge repository.
· X3D Application Stack - Layers and Alternatives
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dApplicationStackLayersAlternatives.png
· Features Comparison X3D4 glTF2 spreadsheet
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications/FeaturesComparisonX3D4glTF2.pdf
and now highlighted at
· X3D Specifications: Schema and DOCTYPE Validation
· https://www.web3d.org/specifications
Ongoing scrutiny and insights are always welcome. Have fun building X3D Applications! 8)
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:41 AM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review, SvgTexture
Perhaps we should generalize to GraphicsTexture and include glTF in the FULL profile, and SVG in a simpler profile.
At this point, it seems like Inline would be a required child of GraphicsTexture, with animation, encoding and navigation options.
I realize I should be checking the ticket and standard.
Yes, I recognize “portals” from Squeak here. Seeing into another scene. I think Anchors are okay here. There’s no HTML5 within HTML5, so there’s no precedent.
John
On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 9:55 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
John, there is a bit more in the issue and the references.
SVG produces animatable interactive 2D images through vector graphics. So it has characteristics of both ImageTexture and MovieTexture (and interpolators and scriptable event models).
Dick’s point yesterday was that implementing such a combination is different and bigger than ImageTexture or MovieTexture. The ways that an author might use an SVG model are similar, but when you think of how a browser might do it and then add computation, user interaction, security, etc. etc. then the design perspective is quite different. This leads us to the tried-and-true approach of implementing and testing further, most likely as a new node.
So I think that is an interesting and important justification that he made. We offer it back to the group for review and discussion – thanks for your points.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2022 5:33 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review, ballot deadlines, X3D Application Stack Layer Examples diagram
Recommendation: SvgTexture should be a single frame MovieTexture for now, with possible extensions to animation with ROUTEs and ECMAscript, if animation is enabled on SvgTexture node. I don’t know if MovieTexture enables/disables animation, but my guess is, yes.
Disabling/enabling animation of SVGs should be in more inclusive profiles.
Is that simple enough?
On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 7:23 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
Consider: SVG is a manipulation language for inserting 2D graphics into a scene. Definition languages are more closely related to schemas, or possibly for manipulating schema. After insertion into a scene, ECMAscript is typically used for manipulation. ROUTEs should be allowed to as well.
SVGs should be considered animations with popular packages being D3.js.
Otherwise, SVG is a declarative language, similar to X3D and HTML. Last I heard, there was no official schema for SVG.
If the SVG is animated by ECMAscript, wouldn’t it more properly be used to texture surfaces and volumes with a MovieTexture? Are MovieTextures 2D or 3D? What textures are used for VolumeRendering?
On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
Attendees: Dick Puk, Don Brutzman
1. We first reviewed the two recently posted Mantis issues regarding SVG and QIF. We also looked at a Mantis issue posted earlier this year relating to scalable composition of really large X3D worlds. Selected details follow.
a. Mantis 1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400
SVG references:
* <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FGraphics%2FSVG&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C7b39d12b82984d1d2ad108da9e6019d9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637996432852179194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UmnAGECEoVx1N3BEnfcG1Wz9waRdHai%2Bo2q6Jak7Du4%3D&reserved=0> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG
* "SVG is a markup language for describing two-dimensional graphics applications and images, and a set of related graphics script interfaces."
Dick estimation: thinks SVG is a 2D scene-graph definition language. It can result as an image, though so can X3D.
This issue suggests that SVG be listed as a recommended (optional) format that can be rendered as an ImageTexture, using the default presentation settings of the SVG model.
Of note is that browsers are not forbidden from implementing SVG as an ImageTexture format, and also that SVG-to-PNG converters are commonplace.
Of further note is that the DPS minutes already showed a use case for SVG as ImageTexture, namely conversion of metadata information as a carefully laid-out annotation image that is billboarded in context. Having direct SVG rendering would eliminate the offscreen conversion step, permitting direct integration of X3D models with other HTML/SVG web graphics.
Concern: don't want to overcomplicate the existing ImageTexture functionality as a 2D array of pixels. Once generation of pixels becomes a computational process, this is different functionality for the ImageTexture node. This might raise further concerns about impact of ImageTexture computational complexity in various profiles (such as Interchange Profile).
Possible alternate: define SvgTexture node? What fields would it have?
Suggested possible resolution:
a. Browsers are welcome to implement ImageTexture as an allowed url format if they see fit,
b. SvgTexture ought to be designed and considered as a possible new node,
c. ComposedImageTexture (or somesuch) might be designed and considered as an even-more general possibility for comuputational 2D imagery,
d. Following further practical experience, defer any specification-change recommendations to future X3D4.1.
b. Mantis 1401: aligning X3D4 LineProperties with Quality Information Framework (QIF) specification
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401
Suggested resolution:
a. The concepts are directly aligned and overlapping, with some additions by QIF.
b. This ISO standard does not appear to have been considered by SC24 or JTC1.
c. Close scrutiny of both terms and definitions needs to be performed before any changes might be recommended.
d. If changes are indeed warranted and acceptable, then they likely need to first considered as part of the Registry of Items, specifically entries for linestyle and hatchstyle.
e. At that point, amendment of X3D to stay aligned with Registry of Items (or possibly add further styles independently) can be considered.
f. Defer to X3D 4.1.
Meanwhile note in Web3D current ballot comments the need to fix the table erratum previously noted.
c. Mantis 1192: 07.2.2 Bindable children nodes - Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes
Comment on 19775-1: Abstract X3D Definitions - V3.3
7.2.2 Bindable children nodes
<http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes
-----------------
Subject: Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic
Spec sayeth:
"The results are undefined if a bindable node is bound and is the child of an LOD, Switch, or any node or prototype that disables its children."
This leads to all manner of inconsistent problems among scenes. It also means that Inline node (which may or may not include bindable nodes) has undefined behavior under LOD/Switch/etc.
As a result, in addition to indeterminate X3D browser behavior, it means that X3D scenes are not fully composable. That is contrary to X3D design objectives.
Different prose and deterministic guidelines is needed in this section that provides clear rules for binding/unbinding nodes when they become active within LOD/Switch/etc. Small adaptations to current binding rules can likely address this problem satisfactorily.
Related: Mantis issue 749
April 29:
Analysis during X3D Working Group call:
a. Switch would keep each binding stack aligned with whichever child was active, thereby binding and unbinding nodes whenever the Switch level is modified.
b. LOD would have all of its child bindable nodes on the binding stack throughout, so that user experience was consistent. For example, it would make no sense for Viewpoints to get arbitrarily unbound and bound, based on range to viewer, as a user independently navigated through a scene.
c. LOD attempting to maintain author intent has access to all Viewpoint nodes on binding stack, and range-to-viewer LOD transitions are either flexible suggestions (browser-optimization control) or rigidly enforced (forceTransitions field is TRUE). Thus if a node is subsequently bound by user in a different inactive LOD child branch, then that binding event is honored and that LOD child branch becomes the active child branch. This binding event (and changed LOD child branch selection) takes precedence over browser range/performance considerations, and also takes precedence over whatever value is provided in forceTransitions field. (Example: selecting a room Viewpoint while in a large building model).
d. NavigationInfo, Background and Fog binding stacks and responses to binding events should behave identically to Viewpoint. Variations would be exceedingly complex and not understandable. Consistency means that author intent and user action always take precedence, for Switch and LOD response.
Spec editors work on integrating these principles as specification prose (we are close already) and report back recommended changes to X3D working group.
Don's opinion: this will significantly help user-sensible scalability of huge (perhaps Metaverse-scale) models using many Inline and prototype nodes, enabling predictable and performant navigation and traversal throughout.
Today’s session.
Alternatives deserving working-review consensus:
a. Recommending this clarification of undefined prior specification prose might add important value, or might be construed as a technical change to X3D4.0 that possibly requires future re-balloting as another X3D 4.0 DIS (which is not an acceptable outcome).
b. If not balloted then this becomes an X3D4.1 issue.
c. Web3D might consider some alternative approach to strongly encourage adoption of this clarified approach in order to further encourage greater scalability of multi-world environments, and better alignment with shared Metaverse design imperatives. For example, are we creating a Best Practices Pending X3D 4.1 Approval document of some sort?
2. We only have 4 total issues to review as planned Web3D comments. This will occur during a single working-group meeting, 7 OCT.
Deadline for X3D Ballot comments:
* OCT, Web3D comments to INCITS (U.S. National Standards Body
* TBD OCT, INCITS comments to SC24
* 4 NOV, SC24 comments to ISO
No meeting currently planned for 30 SEP.
3. Bonus round: we worked on the “layer” diagram from recent meetings a bit more. Latest X3dApplicationStackLayerExamples is attached, all comments welcome.
Have fun with X3D!
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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