[x3d-public] X3D design tools, forking Blender, SAI
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Fri Jun 7 16:54:20 PDT 2024
Where are those tools now? Why? Answer that question, and you’ll know why
Blender is popular. We don’t want something that’s under one corporation’s
thumb. No vendor lock-in, please. No format lock-ins, please.
Yes, we could fork Blender and go in our own direction. I’m more of a
collaborative type. I’ve seen too many forks in religions and social
networks that I’m sick of it. Join, don’t split. No, don’t force people
to drink your brand of Kool-aid, either.
I’m working a lot with SAI: x3d.py, X3DJSAIL, C++ SAIL, but I don’t see
anyone else using them much, or even questions about them. Are there other
places to discuss these? Slack is dead.
Do we need a mapping from X3DUOM to rendering APIs? Myeong et al has done
great work creating rendered C++ examples. Are there videos of such things
(I’m a bit nervous about running them because her C++ SAI core engine
appears to be closed source [headers and examples are open], and i don’t
know the linker incantation in MSVC++ tools. Can we have example
command-line scripts and makefiles so an IDE is not necessary?)?
Hopefully, i will be able to run C SAI examples with WSL2, and the library
will be open source.
COIN3D remains a potential option. Hmm!
Are there other C++ SAIs that we could offer Blender?
John
On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 4:55 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
> A great example of the old days was viz3d and flux and BS Content studio.
> The x3d sai is capable of producing a native x3d authoring tool.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> Sent: Jun 6, 2024 1:59 PM
> To: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D
> Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?
>
>
> Sorry TL;DR. Major point: both Blender bones and Skeleton as Transforms
> should be supported for maximum flexibility. What are your thoughts?
>
> Replying to Joe:
>
> Understood. AFAIK, I still need blender bones to export weights right
> now, but Blender bones only provide for Joints, not segments or sites (can
> I attach EMPTYs to Blender bones in a particular mode?). I will
> experiment with attaching weights to EMPTYs (joints), then on export, I
> will move weight detection from Blender bones to EMPTYs, we can do limited
> mapping on export, but asking someone to map an entire LOA4 skeleton is
> unrealistic. I don’t even like LOA1-LOA2 in VRM and BVH. Such
> user-specified mapping should be saved for reuse. I can already do MoMask
> BVH joint mapping on export (but not “End Site” yet). We probably won’t be
> able to save HAnim to VRM skeletons, and I think that USDSkel may do
> armature/bones as well, so I’m not seeing X3D to USD Skel particularly
> working. *I think Doug suggested a separate skeleton mapping app*,
> perhaps this feasible. It’s just not realistic with glTF files exported to
> 8GB-14GB X3D files 200 times the size of a Blender file.
>
> The good news is, I got small Transform hierarchies import mostly working
> in Blender with matrix_local and translation. Now to follow through with
> centers and HAnim. Moving like molasses, but with simple examples, things
> are easier and moving faster without waiting years for import and tons of
> logging.
>
> *Katy can comment on rigging and armature in Blender, *as what might be
> missing if we don’t import Blender bones, this may severely impact the
> apparel workflow in Blender.
>
> *Most likely, both paths should be supported.* I hope you are in
> agreement. Perhaps separating out the import/export into separate addons
> would make decisions easier.
>
> Your additional thoughts are welcome.
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 2:48 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> > Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and
>> HAnim?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, if blender transform operation can use 'center', which Joint needs.
>> Just name the objects so the Humanoid, Joint, Segment, Site transforms can
>> be transcoded at export into into HAnim hierarchy.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Jun 6, 2024 5:03 AM
>> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D
>> Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?
>>
>>
>> Okay, Joe. Now to get this working in Blender, since you’ve confirmed
>> the behavior. Thanks!
>>
>> Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and
>> HAnim?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 5:35 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You sent this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <Transform DEF="TransformRoot1" center="0 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> <Transform DEF="TransformTargetParent1" center="4 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> <Transform DEF="TransformTargetChild1" center="8 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not shown here is the interpolator that sends rotations to both Parent
>>> and Child Transforms
>>>
>>> For this animation code you sent this did exactly what it should have
>>> done.
>>>
>>> The boxes start at 0 0 0 then are swept along the axis according to the
>>> Parent and Child Transform nodes animation input.
>>>
>>> Note that the initial position of all three boxes is 0 0 0, then they
>>> move along the radius from where you set the parent centers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please have a look at this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> First, slight change from what you sent.
>>>
>>> Again, a important understanding is that "center" value of the Transform
>>> represents the center of rotation of that Transform, and may have nothing
>>> much to do with the value for translation, which is 0 0 0 for the parent
>>> Transform for each Shape.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <Transform DEF="CenterRoot1" center="0 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> <Transform DEF="CenterParent1" center="4 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> <Transform DEF="CenterChild1" center="8 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So again, all Shapes start at 0 0 0 then are swept through the arc
>>> defined by each parent Transform center.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This version operates like the hanim model.
>>>
>>> The parent Transform is a "Joint" with center defined, then the Shape
>>> has its own Transform to place it at the parent center value.
>>>
>>> (The first center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0' just moves the is example
>>> up above the first example.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <Transform DEF="TransformRoot2" center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0'>
>>> <Transform DEF="MoveToCenterRoot" translation="0 2 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> </Transform>
>>> <Transform DEF="CenterTargetParent2" center="4 0 0">
>>> <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetParent2" translation="4 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> </Transform>
>>> <Transform DEF="CenterTargetChild2" center="8 0 0">
>>> <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetChild2" translation="8 0 0">
>>> <Shape>
>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>> </Shape>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>> </Transform>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In Humanoid space, once the connection between using center to set the
>>> Joint center of rotation and then a child Transform to position any
>>> associated stuff in Humanoid space just makes it work wonderful for what we
>>> need in hanim.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I can recall a day when there were sincere discussions over whether to
>>> include the 'center' field in Transform.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/attachments/20240607/99999117/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the x3d-public
mailing list