[x3d-public] X3D design tools, forking Blender, SAI

[Joe D Williams]

> Where are those tools now?  Why? 

bought out and hired out because of intrinsic value. If you learn x3d you will learn best practice and there will be no time wasted if you then move up to the highest fee proprietary enterprize and simulation concepts. 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Jun 7, 2024 4:54 PM
To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
Cc: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: X3D design tools, forking Blender, SAI

Where are those tools now?  Why?  Answer that question, and you’ll know why Blender is popular.  We don’t want something that’s under one corporation’s thumb.  No vendor lock-in, please.  No format lock-ins, please.
 
Yes, we could fork Blender and go in our own direction.  I’m more of a collaborative type.  I’ve seen too many forks in religions and social networks that I’m sick of it.  Join, don’t split.  No, don’t force people to drink your brand of Kool-aid, either.
 
I’m working a lot with SAI: x3d.py, X3DJSAIL, C++ SAIL, but I don’t see anyone else using them much, or even questions about them.  Are there other places to discuss these?  Slack is dead.
 
Do we need a mapping from X3DUOM to rendering APIs?  Myeong et al has done great work creating rendered C++ examples.  Are there videos of such things (I’m a bit nervous about running them because her C++ SAI core engine appears to be closed source [headers and examples are open], and i don’t know the linker incantation in MSVC++ tools.  Can we have example command-line scripts and makefiles so an IDE is not necessary?)?  Hopefully, i will be able to run C SAI examples with WSL2, and the library will be open source.
 
COIN3D remains a potential option.  Hmm!
 
Are there other C++ SAIs that we could offer Blender?
 
John

On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 4:55 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)> wrote:
A great example of the old days was viz3d and flux and BS Content studio. The x3d sai is capable of producing a native x3d authoring tool. 

Thanks,
Joe
  

.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)>
Sent: Jun 6, 2024 1:59 PM
To: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com (mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com)>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)>
Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com (mailto:katy at ksappareldesign.com)>, X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org (mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org)>
Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?

Sorry TL;DR.  Major point:  both Blender bones and Skeleton as Transforms should be supported for maximum flexibility.  What are your thoughts?

 
Replying to Joe:
 
Understood.  AFAIK, I still need blender bones to export weights right now, but Blender bones only provide for Joints, not segments or sites (can I attach EMPTYs to Blender bones in a particular  mode?).  I will experiment with attaching weights to EMPTYs (joints),  then on export, I will move weight detection from Blender bones to EMPTYs,  we can do limited mapping on export, but asking someone to map an entire LOA4 skeleton is unrealistic. I don’t even like LOA1-LOA2 in VRM and BVH. Such user-specified mapping should be saved for reuse.  I can already do MoMask BVH joint mapping on export (but not “End Site” yet).  We probably won’t be able to save HAnim  to VRM skeletons, and I think that USDSkel may do armature/bones as well, so I’m not seeing X3D to USD Skel particularly working.  I think Doug suggested a separate skeleton mapping app, perhaps this feasible.  It’s just not realistic with glTF files exported to 8GB-14GB X3D files 200 times the size of a Blender file.
 
The good news is, I got small Transform hierarchies import mostly working in Blender with matrix_local and translation. Now to follow through with centers and HAnim.  Moving like molasses, but with simple examples, things are easier and moving faster without waiting years for import and tons of logging.
 
Katy can comment on rigging and armature in Blender, as what might be missing if we don’t import Blender bones,  this may severely impact the apparel workflow in Blender.
 
Most likely, both paths should be supported.  I hope you are in agreement.  Perhaps separating out the import/export into separate addons would make decisions easier.
 
Your additional thoughts are welcome.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 2:48 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)> wrote:
> Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and HAnim? 

Yes, if blender transform operation can use 'center', which Joint needs. Just name the objects so the Humanoid, Joint, Segment, Site transforms can be transcoded at export into into HAnim hierarchy. 
Joe




-----Original Message-----
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)>
Sent: Jun 6, 2024 5:03 AM
To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)>
Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com (mailto:katy at ksappareldesign.com)>, X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org (mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org)>
Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?

Okay, Joe.  Now to get this working in Blender, since you’ve confirmed the behavior.  Thanks!

 
Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and HAnim?
 
John

On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 5:35 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)> wrote:
Hi John, 

You sent this: 

  <Transform DEF="TransformRoot1" center="0 0 0">
    <Shape>
      <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
    </Shape>
    <Transform DEF="TransformTargetParent1" center="4 0 0">
      <Shape>
        <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
      </Shape>
      <Transform DEF="TransformTargetChild1" center="8 0 0">
        <Shape>
          <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
        </Shape>
      </Transform>
    </Transform>
  </Transform>

Not shown here is the interpolator that sends rotations to both Parent and Child Transforms
For this animation code you sent this did exactly what it should have done.
The boxes start at 0 0 0 then are swept along the axis according to the Parent and Child Transform nodes animation input.  
Note that the initial position of all three boxes is 0 0 0, then they move along the radius from where you set the parent centers.

Please have a look at this: 

First, slight change from what you sent. 
Again, a important understanding is that "center" value of the Transform represents the center of rotation of that Transform, and may have nothing much to do with the value for translation, which is 0 0 0 for the parent Transform for each Shape. 

  <Transform DEF="CenterRoot1" center="0 0 0">
    <Shape>
      <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
    </Shape>
    <Transform DEF="CenterParent1" center="4 0 0">
      <Shape>
        <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
      </Shape>
      <Transform DEF="CenterChild1" center="8 0 0">
        <Shape>
          <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
        </Shape>
      </Transform>
    </Transform>
  </Transform>

So again, all Shapes start at 0 0 0 then are swept through the arc defined by each parent Transform center.  

This version operates like the hanim model.
The parent Transform is a "Joint" with center defined, then the Shape has its own Transform to place it at the parent center value.
(The first center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0' just moves the is example up above the first example.) 

  <Transform DEF="TransformRoot2" center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0'>
    <Transform DEF="MoveToCenterRoot" translation="0 2 0">
      <Shape>
        <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
      </Shape>
    </Transform>
    <Transform DEF="CenterTargetParent2" center="4 0 0">
      <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetParent2" translation="4 0 0">
        <Shape>
          <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
        </Shape>
      </Transform>
      <Transform DEF="CenterTargetChild2" center="8 0 0">
        <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetChild2" translation="8 0 0">
          <Shape>
            <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
          </Shape>
        </Transform>
      </Transform>
    </Transform>
  </Transform>

In Humanoid space, once the connection between using center to set the Joint center of rotation and then a child Transform to position any associated stuff in Humanoid space just makes it work wonderful for what we need in hanim.

I can recall a day when there were sincere discussions over whether to include the 'center' field in Transform.  

Thanks,
Joe






















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