[x3d-public] X3D design tools, forking Blender, SAI
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Fri Jun 7 19:29:49 PDT 2024
I learned that the best tools I created got buried or replaced. Even
standards like SGML and PHIGS get buried and replaced. X11 is being
buried. We had a cross-platform stateful client-server user interface
protocol like HTML. It would have been HTML forms if we had used SGML as
Don Vickers suggested. I tried to port it to the web, but we couldn't send
stuff like classes and identifiers over HTML at the time I did it.
Remember days without div, span and id=?
I'd rather have fun than get burned out or work on war crap. The 192-beam
laser works, and I had a part. Maybe I helped solve the world's energy
problems. That's our best hope for reducing war.
If anyone wants to participate in deafblind people-robots signing
simulation, hop on board. You probably won't make a ton of money, but you
may be the future of programming.
On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 8:36 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Where are those tools now? Why?
>
>
>
> bought out and hired out because of intrinsic value. If you learn x3d you
> will learn best practice and there will be no time wasted if you then move
> up to the highest fee proprietary enterprize and simulation concepts.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> Sent: Jun 7, 2024 4:54 PM
> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> Cc: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <
> katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D Graphics public mailing list <
> x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Subject: X3D design tools, forking Blender, SAI
>
>
> Where are those tools now? Why? Answer that question, and you’ll know
> why Blender is popular. We don’t want something that’s under one
> corporation’s thumb. No vendor lock-in, please. No format lock-ins,
> please.
>
> Yes, we could fork Blender and go in our own direction. I’m more of a
> collaborative type. I’ve seen too many forks in religions and social
> networks that I’m sick of it. Join, don’t split. No, don’t force people
> to drink your brand of Kool-aid, either.
>
> I’m working a lot with SAI: x3d.py, X3DJSAIL, C++ SAIL, but I don’t see
> anyone else using them much, or even questions about them. Are there other
> places to discuss these? Slack is dead.
>
> Do we need a mapping from X3DUOM to rendering APIs? Myeong et al has done
> great work creating rendered C++ examples. Are there videos of such things
> (I’m a bit nervous about running them because her C++ SAI core engine
> appears to be closed source [headers and examples are open], and i don’t
> know the linker incantation in MSVC++ tools. Can we have example
> command-line scripts and makefiles so an IDE is not necessary?)?
> Hopefully, i will be able to run C SAI examples with WSL2, and the library
> will be open source.
>
> COIN3D remains a potential option. Hmm!
>
> Are there other C++ SAIs that we could offer Blender?
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 4:55 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> A great example of the old days was viz3d and flux and BS Content studio.
>> The x3d sai is capable of producing a native x3d authoring tool.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Jun 6, 2024 1:59 PM
>> To: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net
>> >
>> Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D
>> Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?
>>
>>
>> Sorry TL;DR. Major point: both Blender bones and Skeleton as Transforms
>> should be supported for maximum flexibility. What are your thoughts?
>>
>> Replying to Joe:
>>
>> Understood. AFAIK, I still need blender bones to export weights right
>> now, but Blender bones only provide for Joints, not segments or sites (can
>> I attach EMPTYs to Blender bones in a particular mode?). I will
>> experiment with attaching weights to EMPTYs (joints), then on export, I
>> will move weight detection from Blender bones to EMPTYs, we can do limited
>> mapping on export, but asking someone to map an entire LOA4 skeleton is
>> unrealistic. I don’t even like LOA1-LOA2 in VRM and BVH. Such
>> user-specified mapping should be saved for reuse. I can already do MoMask
>> BVH joint mapping on export (but not “End Site” yet). We probably won’t be
>> able to save HAnim to VRM skeletons, and I think that USDSkel may do
>> armature/bones as well, so I’m not seeing X3D to USD Skel particularly
>> working. *I think Doug suggested a separate skeleton mapping app*,
>> perhaps this feasible. It’s just not realistic with glTF files exported to
>> 8GB-14GB X3D files 200 times the size of a Blender file.
>>
>> The good news is, I got small Transform hierarchies import mostly working
>> in Blender with matrix_local and translation. Now to follow through with
>> centers and HAnim. Moving like molasses, but with simple examples, things
>> are easier and moving faster without waiting years for import and tons of
>> logging.
>>
>> *Katy can comment on rigging and armature in Blender, *as what might be
>> missing if we don’t import Blender bones, this may severely impact the
>> apparel workflow in Blender.
>>
>> *Most likely, both paths should be supported.* I hope you are in
>> agreement. Perhaps separating out the import/export into separate addons
>> would make decisions easier.
>>
>> Your additional thoughts are welcome.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 2:48 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> > Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and
>>> HAnim?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, if blender transform operation can use 'center', which Joint needs.
>>> Just name the objects so the Humanoid, Joint, Segment, Site transforms can
>>> be transcoded at export into into HAnim hierarchy.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jun 6, 2024 5:03 AM
>>> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> Cc: Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>, X3D
>>> Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Can you get this X3D animation imported into Blender?
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, Joe. Now to get this working in Blender, since you’ve confirmed
>>> the behavior. Thanks!
>>>
>>> Can we use the same transform code in Blender for both Transform and
>>> HAnim?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 5:35 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You sent this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Transform DEF="TransformRoot1" center="0 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> <Transform DEF="TransformTargetParent1" center="4 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> <Transform DEF="TransformTargetChild1" center="8 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not shown here is the interpolator that sends rotations to both Parent
>>>> and Child Transforms
>>>>
>>>> For this animation code you sent this did exactly what it should have
>>>> done.
>>>>
>>>> The boxes start at 0 0 0 then are swept along the axis according to the
>>>> Parent and Child Transform nodes animation input.
>>>>
>>>> Note that the initial position of all three boxes is 0 0 0, then they
>>>> move along the radius from where you set the parent centers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please have a look at this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> First, slight change from what you sent.
>>>>
>>>> Again, a important understanding is that "center" value of the
>>>> Transform represents the center of rotation of that Transform, and may have
>>>> nothing much to do with the value for translation, which is 0 0 0 for the
>>>> parent Transform for each Shape.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Transform DEF="CenterRoot1" center="0 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> <Transform DEF="CenterParent1" center="4 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> <Transform DEF="CenterChild1" center="8 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So again, all Shapes start at 0 0 0 then are swept through the arc
>>>> defined by each parent Transform center.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This version operates like the hanim model.
>>>>
>>>> The parent Transform is a "Joint" with center defined, then the Shape
>>>> has its own Transform to place it at the parent center value.
>>>>
>>>> (The first center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0' just moves the is example
>>>> up above the first example.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Transform DEF="TransformRoot2" center="0 2 0" translation='0 2 0'>
>>>> <Transform DEF="MoveToCenterRoot" translation="0 2 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> <Transform DEF="CenterTargetParent2" center="4 0 0">
>>>> <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetParent2" translation="4 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> <Transform DEF="CenterTargetChild2" center="8 0 0">
>>>> <Transform DEF="TranslateTargetChild2" translation="8 0 0">
>>>> <Shape>
>>>> <Box size='0.5 0.5 0.5'/>
>>>> </Shape>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>> </Transform>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In Humanoid space, once the connection between using center to set the
>>>> Joint center of rotation and then a child Transform to position any
>>>> associated stuff in Humanoid space just makes it work wonderful for what we
>>>> need in hanim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can recall a day when there were sincere discussions over whether to
>>>> include the 'center' field in Transform.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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