[x3d-public] HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

Joe D Williams joedwil at earthlink.net
Tue Mar 19 14:03:38 PDT 2024


please see below 

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
Sent: Mar 16, 2024 8:58 AM
To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

> Here is the attachment on the first 11 feature points.  
 
Thank You  Getting the Part 1 Annex A up using the latest proposed data for this example of a "Standard" example with  example hierarchies, spec names, and example locations,complete foran LOA4 is much needed. 
 
> The site for the translations do not have points numbered so I added in that column.  
 
Fine, 
 
> As you can see from this attachment - the feature points are independent of the joints as it does not matter which LOA that you choose. 
  
True, all five loa examples show all surface feature points. It might be to simplify the Annex A by  only having one table for listing Site feature points. 
   
> But questions - during the animation - do the feature points move?  How are they bound to the mesh and skin?   
   
The feature points are implemented as Site nodes that are children of a specific Segment. So, a Site follows Segment motions as controlled by the parent Joint and custom Site animations. A Site can be a sensor or geometry or anything x3d.   
  
However, for Level 2 'skinned' projects a shortcoming in this architecture may show. The animation for the skin vertex depends upon weighted rotation of bound Joint node(s) and may not exactly match motion of the Site controlled by a Joint node. Thus, in a default pose while it easy to get a visible Site feature associated with a specific skin vertex or area, some extreme, or even typical, animations could cause the Site to move relative to the target skin vertex. (Not a problem with Level 1 Segment geometry.)  
  
This is a hypothetical problem for Level 2 hanim because it may be that we have better control of position and orientation of a Site node than of a specific skin vertex or skin area. The best solution is to give the author tools to choose. This means upgrading the skin part of the spec to allow the author to assign Site functionality to one or a group of skin mesh points. I don't think this is giant technical jump and for x3d syntax or a browser to implement. 
  
>  If the skin (mesh) breaks during a movement - what happens to the feature point? 
 
If the skin breaks, there is a different animation problem.   
>From above, since a skin point position can be controlled independently of related Site position and orientation (with various interlocking dependencies) we can see it is possible for the site and skin point to be aligned to start but move away from each other during animation. If we can't have a skin point with features of a Site, then in some cases author may need another animation routine to keep the Site location better aligned with the skin point location. Finally, there may be existing authoring systems that allow the author to have sensors on sensors on skin points as well as  skeleton points now. 
  
> Thanks 
> Carol 
 
John > I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms  

Yes and 0 0 0 is at the floor, between the feet. the HAnim local coordinate system is same as the default x3d parent coordinate system,1_1 in meters. 

John > This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. 

The Part 1 Annex A dimensions are just examples derived from historical data base of some sample humans. The names for Joint, Segment,and Site nodes are standard medical names. These are generally 'male' and it  would be nice to have dimensions for corresponding female type. 

Thanks Again, 

Joe
 
On 03/16/2024 7:08 AM PDT Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net> wrote:
 
 
I have been looking into this.  And I am agreeing with John's assessment. I will somehow need to get everything into Rhino for visualization and coding. 
 
>From John on March 14th. 
I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms outside the humanoid.
That's my best guess right now.
 



What is not noted on the General is the exact file or model for which these translations were built for.  This means that the list of the translations on the website only valid for the humanoid model that they were obtained for, the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model. 
 
This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. 
 
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General
 
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA3DefaultSiteTranslations
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations
 
Is this the model for which the translations are built for?  Can someone send me the proper link? Is this it?  I will see if I can import it into Rhino 8. 
HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d 
 
Back to updating every 120 points currently listed as to recommendations of how to locate it and adding the additional feature points that I have requested. 
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody

 
Carol 

On 03/16/2024 4:23 AM PDT John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
 
 
 

On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 2:38 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)> wrote:
> You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry.  I'll be checking those in soon

Great John,
I will check this out soon. 
Any ideas for the 'virtual' feature points? 
All Fine, 
Joe

 
Joe, do you mean user drawn, not in current standard? User defined points?  I have scripts for sites to place coordinates, but I don't have  a way to get them into the hierarchy yet, so...
 
John 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)>
Sent: Mar 15, 2024 12:11 AM
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org (mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org)>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net (mailto:cemd2 at comcast.net)>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

Carol, I'm discovering it makes a difference where you put the Transform in the HAnimSegment as to whether to reuse the center.  I don't have something that doesn't put out warnings yet, or takes the Sites away from the Joints.  Hmm! 
My best Humanoid so far is Humanoid4J.x3d.
 
I'm going to get some sleep.


On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 12:53 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)> wrote:
Good use of Billboard for annotated feature points 
Please consider this a contribution to the Web3DConsortium examples.  I release my copyright and licensing privileges, and give them copyright and licensing under the normal X3D resources example.
 
Thanks to Joe and Don for good examples to draw from!
 
No, I don't have any metadata yet.  Let's set up a time and figure out who all contributed.
 
You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry.  I'll be checking those in soon.
 
John
 
 









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