[x3d-public] [x3dom-developers] Prototype

Tony Parisi tparisi at gmail.com
Tue Feb 17 10:40:18 PST 2015


Howdy Eric

Understood about the polyfills issue and GLAM. Just FYI it will be
extensible because I am porting the whole thing to Web Components. Soon.
Someday :-)


On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Eric Maranne <eric.maranne at vr-crisis.com>
wrote:

>  Hi Tony,
>
> 3806 objects in EVE objects Library ... and still growing everyday ...  if
> I may port/reuse even partly some of them .... that'd ease my taxes funding.
> If you remember, I've never been a big enthusiast of DOM, and much more VR
> than eXchange... but the X of X3D slowly evolved (in the list discussions)
> from eXchange (mostly it's original acception) to eXtensibility (which fits
> more closely to VR, but still not enough IMHO- but it's another story).
> DOM is a little bit heavy and awkward (-hating the syntax- thanks for
> classic encoding :) ...), but todays processors, memory, video cards and
> dev environments relieved the burden OK. Even old school programmer like
> me, whom have been educated in sparing bits and scrubbing loops, can't say
> much.
>
> Glamjs is nice, I already had a look at it ( following your moves since
> worldview shipped with windows :) ... ), but doesn't provide extensibility,
> has poor existing assets portability, requires dev skills I do not have in
> my staff (shift from C++ stand alone app to HTML5 polyfills ... arrgh ...)
> and is too young for me to bet on.
>
> You and I saw how many new, eventually good ideas and formats disappearing
> down the road ? don't have enough fingers and toes to count them since the
> mid 90es. I'm certainly not gonna surprise you if I'm somehow cautious.
> VRML/X3D is till kicking and alive ... even if ... it'd deserves even
> better IMHO. Nowadays, VR is penduling back ... may be time to resurrect
> VRML ? ;-)
>
> Gonna have a look at scenevr. Multi user out of the box is a good point
> ... but .. same remarks as Glamjs ...
>
> Have a nice afternoon, and may the winds be kind to Glamjs and to the
> projects you're fostering.
>
> Eric.
> eric.maranne at vr-crisis.com
>
> Le 17/02/2015 18:52, Tony Parisi a écrit :
>
>  Eric,
>
> If you're not going to go with X3DOM, why jump at proprietary runtimes
> like Unreal or Unity? There are other open source options, such as GLAM (my
> project) and SceneVR (not my project).
>
> http://www.glamjs.org/
>
> https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr
> http://www.scenevr.com/
>
>  These have the benefit of not being tied to X3D legacy, which for some
> developers is considered a burden. They also work with the latest browser
> features like CSS Animations, which are far from perfect, but they have the
> advantage of being universally supported in browsers. And so on. Now, both
> of these projects are very new and don't have near the person-hours into
> development that X3D does. But that's part of the attraction for some
> people: it's a clean slate.
>
> I understand that for others it's important to maintain X3D compatibility.
> For those uses, it seems like X3DOM is a good bet.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Eric Maranne <eric at geovrml.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Alan, long time no see :)
>>
>> two more cents ...
>>
>> cross plugin is almost impossible. It's even very difficult with
>> different single plugin updates ... ( ! ) , and this, I guess because no
>> browser has gained enough momentum to impose its own views on
>> implementation efficiency of protos. From a user POV, it's well defined.
>> From an implementor POV, efficiency, memory management, even compatibility
>> with other browsers approaches (!) and underspec are as many landmines for
>> interoperability.
>>
>> Look, even after more than a decade, rotation.multiply is leading to
>> opposite composition in some VRML browsers !  this is not a *big* deal in
>> development. It took more than a decade to leverage cross browser extrusion
>> behaving ... scripting engines still are not compatible (tried this.
>> operator in other plugin than cortona) ...  it took an x3D conformance
>> database testing to get things going right in X3D, and it took me years of
>> work to port from Cortona to Contact in the last decade. Not been using
>> XJ3D, for my apps are stand alone, mostly web disconnected, and porting
>> from one plugin to the other is too much a pain in the ... .
>> Interoperability is resolved nowadays by choosing a plugin, and a
>> container, that's why EVE is a stand alone app, and has been running like a
>> Swiss cuckoo clock since 1999, version after version.
>>
>> So I don't think cross browser interoperability is an excuse. When in
>> current implementations rotations are handled differently, scripting
>> engines capabilities (and syntax expectations !!!) are different, protos
>> can't be interoperable... and it's not because of dev. difficulties.
>> Clearly, browsers ought now to be used in dedicated apps (like EVE for
>> us), while X3DOM or pure webgl or EMScripten compilations would be used for
>> Internet delivery/sharing.
>>
>> AFAIC, in my business, today, the problem is on the table, awaiting a
>> decision. Infering stand alone EVE app would disappear in the end, cause no
>> small business may support several competing techs for long. We already
>> support OGRE, Contact and Unreal for different needs, but we need
>> convergence. Are we the only end-users on the edge of change ? any echoes
>> on the list ?
>>
>> Hopefully, concerning Protos, since most of the underlying implementation
>> is shared (webGL), and if most of the middle layers implementation is
>> shared (X3DOM), then surely many VRML/X3D/proprietary plugins interop
>> landmines are gone .... RIP.
>> My feeling is the new 'VR plugin' is now as low as webgl ... and the
>> question is ... do we want to build atop, using X3D, or shifting authoring
>> and usability to production environment UNREAL or Unity or else, delivering
>> thru Emscripten.. .
>>
>> Thanks Fraunhofer team for the good work, thanks Don for your obstinacy.
>>
>> Eric.
>> eric.maranne at vr-crisis.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 17/02/2015 17:49, Alan Hudson a écrit :
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> First, congratulations X3DOM developers.  Getting to embedded Script
>>> nodes inside of Prototype declarations is about the most sophisticated
>>> thing that there is in X3D.  Indeed it is a major language feature for
>>> Extensibility (the X in X3D).  So if we get that working in X3DOM,
>>> everything else is easier.   8)
>>>
>>> Attached please find a recently drawn diagram that sheds some light on
>>> when values of embedded Script fields get initialized or overridden, and
>>> also when they don't.  Perhaps some folks will find it helpful.  Comments
>>> and improvements welcome, I'll be cleaning it up and adding an electronic
>>> version to the other prototype resources.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure that Xj3D satisfactorily supports everything
>>> (ProtoInstance fieldValue ExternProtoDeclare ProtoDeclare Script field IS
>>> connect).  We recently improved some of the console diagnostics there,
>>> which has helped in scene debugging.  If problems are still encountered,
>>> then they are typically elsewhere in the scene graph.  Running open-source
>>> Xj3D within Netbeans in debug mode lets us drill down to any line of code
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>>  Xj3D never got all the interactions working completely right.  We made
>> an heroic effort but getting cross browser PROTO's working is not easy.
>> I'd suggest this has proven not possible at least given all the data points
>> we've seen on interop issues.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So implementing this proven, standard, working capability would seem to
>>> be worthwhile.  Certainly seems easier than creating a new nonstandard
>>> extension mechanism that doesn't support X3D content.
>>>
>>>  The only thing proven is that after a decade of trying a bunch of
>> dedicated people cannot make them work.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/16/2015 9:13 AM, Don Brutzman wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be good to discuss strategies for eventually implementing X3D
>>>> prototypes.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of X3D players have implemented prototypes, so they are a
>>>> well-proven technology.
>>>>
>>>> Other opportunities for implementation in X3DOM may emerge. For
>>>> example, if there is a design pattern for mapping an X3D ProtoDeclare into
>>>> X3DOM source code, then we could write an XSLT stylesheet to provide such a
>>>> conversion on demand.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds less efficient than simply implementing prototypes in X3DOM, but
>>>> it is a path.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, in case anyone had a mistaken impression, there are no
>>>> "native XML tags" for prototypes in the .x3d syntax.  Example invocation:
>>>>
>>>>       <ProtoInstance name='TimeDelaySensor'
>>>> DEF='TimeDelaySensorExample'>
>>>>         <fieldValue name='description' value='double click to initiate
>>>> time-delayed event'/>
>>>>         <fieldValue name='delayInterval' value='1'/>
>>>>       </ProtoInstance>
>>>>
>>>> Similar syntax using the @name attribute is provided for ProtoDeclare
>>>> and ExternProtoDeclare.  References:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare
>>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare
>>>>
>>>> http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes
>>>>
>>>> http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf
>>>>
>>>> https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14
>>>>
>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>> --
>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x3d-public mailing listx3d-public at web3d.orghttp://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x3d-public mailing list
>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Tony Parisi                             tparisi at gmail.com
>  Founder, Third Eye                http://www.thirdeye.gl/
>  Follow me on Twitter!             http://twitter.com/auradeluxe
> Read my blog at                     http://www.tonyparisi.com/
>  Learn WebGL                         http://learningwebgl.com/
>  Mobile                                    415.902.8002
>  Skype                                     auradeluxe
>
> Read my books!
>
>
> *Programming 3D Applications in HTML5 and WebGL
> http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966
> <http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966>
> WebGL, Up and Running*
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X
>
>
>


-- 


Tony Parisi                             tparisi at gmail.com
Founder, Third Eye                http://www.thirdeye.gl/
Follow me on Twitter!             http://twitter.com/auradeluxe
Read my blog at                     http://www.tonyparisi.com/
Learn WebGL                         http://learningwebgl.com/
Mobile                                    415.902.8002
Skype                                     auradeluxe

Read my books!


*Programming 3D Applications in HTML5 and
WebGLhttp://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966
<http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966>WebGL,
Up and Running*
http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/attachments/20150217/e3c224c2/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the x3d-public mailing list