[x3d-public] X3D minutes 6 MAR 2020: X3D4 special meeting on PBR, issue progress, Metadata containerFIeld defaults for XML encoding
Joseph D Williams
joedwil at earthlink.net
Fri Mar 6 15:59:20 PST 2020
➢ Use cares working around the hiding of bounding boxes within CollisionCollection are welcome.
I just recall that one reason we decided to include bounding box with all hanim elements, Humanoid, Joint, Segment, Site elements, based on an assumption that they could in turn hold elements that contained bb.
Joe
From: Don Brutzman
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:40 AM
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: [x3d-public] X3D minutes 6 MAR 2020: X3D4 special meeting on PBR,issue progress, Metadata containerFIeld defaults for XML encoding
1. Usual coordinates for telcon today, appearing below.
Attendees: Anita Havele, Vince Marchetti, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
Participant review confirmed that no member-only information is included in these minutes.
Next week: Michalis Kamburelis will describe proposed X3D4 changes for Physically Based Rendering (PBR) and glTF support. He has a large number of excellent models demonstrating these capabilities, and they feel ready for comparative implementation in other X3D4 players. This will be a fully open meeting with everyone welcome to attend.
Recent meeting minutes:
[1] [x3d] X3D WG discussions Feb 28 2020
https://web3d.org/mailman/private/x3d_web3d.org/2020-February/007819.html
[2] [x3d-public] X3D agenda 21 FEB 2020: X3Dv4 schedule planning
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-February/011791.html
[3] [x3d-public] X3D minutes 31 JAN 2020: X3Dv4 issues, XML Metadata containerField, consolidating mismatched field names
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-January/011746.html
TODO: these minutes have a number of actions and changes to apply but only partially complete. Mea culpa, will keep after them.
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2. *News and Events*
a. /X3D4 Physically Based Rendering/. Our next meeting will be dedicated to Michalis Kamburelis presenting examples, implementations and draft node specifications for the X3D4 Physically Based Rendering (PBR). His implementations are using Castle Game Engine (view3dscene). This work includes support for glTF model loading and corresponding changes to the X3D4 lighting model. All of this is being achieved in a manner that can coexist with classically rendered X3D/VRML97 models.
Given the importance of this approaching capability, we are making the meeting fully open to anyone who might like to attend. We especially encourage scrutiny by other implementers (X_ITE, X3DOM, FreeWrl).
Our agenda is simple. He will show his work and everyone can discuss for ~90 minutes. All reactions and feedback welcome.
* X3D Physically Based Rendering (PBR) presentation
https://zoom.us/j/432546382
Minutes and reaction thread from last Monday's X3D4 PBR session:
[3.1] [x3d-public] X3D4 PBR specification review: updates and demos
http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-March/011830.html
Go Michalis Go! 8)
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b. /Xj3D NPS branch/ upgraded to Java 13 and moved from Sourceforge subversion to NPS gitlab server. Runs on multiple operating systems (Windows, MacOSX, Linux to be confirmed shortly). Have successfully regenerated Viewpoint screen snapshots for all example scenes, also checked several thousand image updates into version control. Working on upload issues, will announce release later this month.
[3.2] NPS Xj3D 2.2 beta
https://gitlab.nps.edu/Savage/xj3d
https://savage.nps.edu/Savage/developers.html#Xj3D
[3.3] X3D Resources, Examples: Scene Archives for X3D
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Examples
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c. The Web3D 2020 Conference committee is considering revised submission dates that best support the deferred dates of 14-16 NOV 2020. Subject to ACM SIGGRAPH approval, we hope that submission deadlines shortly after SIGGRAPH (i.e. early August) will work.
[3.4] Web3D 2020 Conference postponed to November 2020
https://www.web3d.org/news-story/web3d-2020-conference-postponed-november-2020
[3.6] SIGGRAPH ASIA, 17-20 November 2020, EXCO Daegu South Korea
https://sa2020.siggraph.org
[3.5] SIGGRAPH 2020, 19-23 July 2020, Washington DC
https://www.web3d.org/event/siggraph-2020
https://s2020.siggraph.org
[3.6] ISO SC24 annual standards committee meeting
By invitation to national bodies and Standards Development Organizations (SDOs) only.
27-31 July 2020, Host L3 HARRIS Technologies for US INCITS H3 committee, Melbourne Florida
Web3D membership has value!
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3. *Gitlab specification bobble*
While working with Michalis on Pull Request PR8 for PBR, I mistakenly committed some changes to the primary trunk for X3D4 Working Draft 1. Ouch.
This has now all been cleaned up (thanks for the great guidance Michalis) but, given the duration between commission and correction, some spec corrections might have been dropped.
The changes related to Mantis 1271, will perform thorough review of all corrections prior to completion of that issue.
Member-only links:
[4] Mantis 1271: add visible field to X3DBoundedObject
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1271
[5] Github Web3DConsortium / X3D
Maintenance and development of all X3D specifications, i.e. ISO/IEC 19775, 19776 and 19777 series.
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19775/ISO-IEC19775-1/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.0/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD1/Part01
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4. *Warmup topic: CollisionCollection/RigidBody and X3DBoundedObject interface*
[6] [x3d-public] CollisionCollection implement X3DBoundedObject
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-February/011751.html
[6.1] Mantis issue 1275: whether CollisionCollection and RigidBody implement X3DBoundedObject node
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1275
Seems simple, a parent node containing nodes with bbox fields should itself contain bbox fields. Let's review.
We agreed that 37.4.10 RigidBody should implement X3DBoundedObject.
Argument was made via various use cases that CollisionCollection might or might not need to be used for bounding box detections. Alternative might be to DEF/USE anything with a bounding box and let a corresponding Group or Transform hold those values... but that in turn would likely require a Switch whichChoice="-1" to avoid duplicate rendering.
Use cares working around the hiding of bounding boxes within CollisionCollection are welcome.
We haven't reached consensus yet... Pretty confusing for an author to construct all that, not yet clear what an effective design pattern would look like, and of note is that the primary purpose of CollisionCollection node is to hold "a collection of objects in the collidables field that can be managed as a single entity for resolution of inter-object collisions with other groups of collidable objects." So it already has direct knowledge of all bounding box computations and thus could efficiently compose them into an outer bounding box.
Deferred.
Also:
[7] [x3d-public] X3DBoundedObject always X3DChildNode ?
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-February/011787.html
"Ignoring for second the exception, I think that means there is a opportunity for simplification of the hierarchy by requiring X3DBoundedObject to implement X3DChildNode."
Thanks Andreas!
More there, certainly seems worth following up. We agreed it was worth further consideration, might possibly also resolve issue 1275.
[7.1] Mantis 1282: is X3DBoundedObject always X3DChildNode ?
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1282
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5. *Metadata containerField in XML encoding*
Lots of discussion in [1], [3] and other emails. Improvement seems do-able, hopefully we are close to reaching consensus on devilish details.
[8] X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 15, Metadata Information
http://x3dgraphics.com/chapters/Chapter15MetadataInformation.html
[9] X3D Example Archives: X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 15 Metadata
https://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter15Metadata
[10] Mantis, View Issues, filter 'metadata'
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
[11] [x3d-public] Update to proposed changes in Metadata nodes in X3D XML encoding
https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-February/011796.html
... more, whew, it took a while to create the mantis issue even when more mail was omitted.
[12] Mantis 1283: XML encoding: change X3D4 MetadataSet default containerField='value' ?
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1283
We agreed that no change to abstract architecture occurred, that initial examples seem correct, and that differences between the two styles were unambiguous as long as X3D version is known.
We agreed that all aspects are thoroughly stated.
Rephrase: this does break backwards compatibility for MetadataSet usage in X3D4 when default containerField values (i.e. omissions) occur. So one simple conversion technique X3D4 <==>X3D3 is to list all containerField values in XML encoding before converting, and then the two forms are equivalent.
Summary: can setting default MetadataSet containerField='value' in X3D4 XML encoding greatly reduce the verbosity of large MetadataSet records, without breaking anything?
Next step: topic for checking consensus when Nicholas is able to participate.
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6. *X3Dv4 Background Information*
Major pieces of work in progress and highly mature include:
a. glTF lighting and physically based rendering, Michalis Kamburelis
b. X3D Sound Component and HTML Audio, Athanasios Malamos and Efi Lakka (in a few more weeks, hopefully)
c. Projective Texture Mapping (PTM), Kwan Hee Yoo
d. Many specification improvements and additions.
Key references:
[1] X3D Version 4 Overview
https://www.web3d.org/x3dv4
[2] X3Dv4 Highlights
httpss://www.web3d.org/x3dv4-highlights
[3] X3Dv4 Implementations Status
https://www.web3d.org/x3dv4-implementations
[4] Draft X3Dv4 specification from SIGGRAPH, August 2019
https://www.web3d.org/news-story/x3dv4-draft-specification-available-public-now
[5] X3D Specifications: Schema and DOCTYPE Validation
https://www.web3d.org/specifications
[6] Mantis Issue Tracker (requires multiple sets of member login)
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
Web3D Consortium members can quickly see all X3Dv4 issues (with tag V4.0) by selecting the filter "X3Dv4" within mantis.
As specified in the reference pages, our next steps of implement/evaluate over the next quarter include
- finished specification prose in github,
- addressing all mantis issues,
- proper example X3D models available for each node/field,
- validation tools confirming examples are satisfactory,
- two or more implementations (X3DOM and X_ITE, FreeWrl and Castle Game Engine view3dscene),
- consensus by working group, approval by Web3D Consortium, submission to ISO.
Here are refined milestones from X3Dv4 Implementations Status page:
_Milestones Timeline_
* /26-31 July 2019/. Publish draft specification plus examples and implementation updates at Web3D2019/SIGGRAPH 2019 conferences.
* /16 December 2019/. Working group accepts X3Dv4 new-technology submissions, with rich capability set publicized for implementation work.
* /31 January 2020/. Specification Editors provide ISO Working Draft on github for use and confirmation by Web3D Consortium members.
* /First quarter 2020/. Implement new components in X3D players, evaluate scene examples for conformance. Publish weekly progress updates.
* /When completed/. Completed ISO Working Draft submitted to X3D Community, Web3D Consortium members, Web3D Board of Directors.
* /BoD approval/. Working Draft upgraded to Committee Draft and submitted with NWIP to ISO.
* /Sequential updates/. Specification updates for 19775-2 Scene Access Interface (SAI), file encodings (XML, ClassicVRML, JSON etc.) and language bindings (JavaScript, Java, Python), and X3D Semantic Web (possibly 19775-3).
A draft schedule update appears ready, based on member discussions, but we are still watching world events and conference delays/cancellations closely. More to follow when ready. Meanwhile much necessary work continues apace.
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7. *Teleconference Information*
We are using the Web3D Consortium Zoom channel, to good effect. It allows use of internet audio, screen sharing and chat with links.
We meet regularly on Fridays 0800-0930 pacific. To join the teleconference:
Join URL https://zoom.us/j/148206572 for X3D Working Group
One tap mobile
* US (New York) +19292056099,,148206572 #
* US (San Jose) +16699006833,,148206572 #
Dial by your location, using (nine-digit number from Join URL above)
* US (New York) +1 929 205 6099
* US (San Jose) +1 669 900 6833
Additional information
Web3D Teleconference
http://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
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Membership has value! Please join and support and participate.
[99] Join the Web3D Consortium
https://www.web3d.org/join
Steady progress throughout. Thanks for all efforts. Have fun with X3D! 8)
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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