[x3d-public] Fw: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

Fri Mar 29 01:03:59 PDT 2024

-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
Sent: Mar 29, 2024 1:02 AM
To: Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

Hi Carol, 
The Humanoid skeleton is a certain hierarchy of Joint, Segment, and Site nodes.  
Joints are connected by Segments.  
Segment can contain geometry and animations to vizualize model surfaces.  
Skeleton pose is controlled by rotation of appropriate Joint nodes.  
Segment is animated directly by parent Joint rotation.  
Segment can include one or more Site nodes. 
Site is animated directly with parent Segment.
Site provides primary interaction functions. 
Site can include anything x3d, including animations, Viewpoints, Sensors, Script, transducers, and accessory geometry. 
All nodes in the Humanoid are "Live" and all parameters can be changed or read. 
Precise control of Humanoid pose, and thus location of Site node, gives great opportunity for detailed interaction with the host environment. 

> I have another question. A feature point is on the skin, however, it is given as a translation. 

Yes, a feature point is intended to be a surface feature. 
In the pose before animation a Site is positioned relative to 0 0 0, in Segment space. 
It gets animated directly by its parent hierarchy.

> But skin vertices have weighting so that proper joints control them.  
Is there weighting for the feature points as well so that the they are controlled by the proper joints? 

No. A Site is a part of the skeleton and is controlled directly by its parent skeleton hierarchy.

Each Part 1 Annex B feature point is coded as a Site node, a child of a specific Segment. 
So, to produce an end-effector we use a Site that is located relative to the distal, terminating, Segment.
The Humanoid skeleton can control continuous mesh serving as a deformable skin 
using linear weighted joint(s) to vertex binding algorithm.
Any Humanoid geometry can also be controlled individually per vertex or groups 
using scalar-driven displacement algorithm. 

For some purposes it could be an advantage to provide the user 
some functionality of the skeleton to the skin. 
That is, to be able to identify a specific skin vertex, or group, 
to be parent of Site node.  
Then the current location of a specific skin vertex 
could provide the interface functionalities such as touch or proximity.

This need would be driven by the potential difference 
in 
(1) the translation of a Site computed directly from skeleton pose 
versus 
(2) the translation of a Site computed by algorithm from skeleton pose.  

The fact is, that even if the two locations 
are identical before animation the same movement of the skeleton 
could produce different translation results for each Site instance.  
The question is then, would (1) or (2) be the most accurate simulation 
of the interface location?

By general observation, if set up reasonably, within most range of motions the relative locations will likely remain within expectations and desired interface functionality can be achieved. 
lf not, for now, additional animation can be applied to move either the skin vertex or the Site in addition to the standard computed motion.   

So, at this point, since without special scripting 
a skin vertex cannot be a Site, what does the author need? 
My preference is to give the author the choice. 
Our x3d skeleton provides an armature that allows the user 
to put a Site node literally anywhere with respect to any 
part of the Humanoid, and to sense where it is at any given sample. 
In general, it is somewhat more difficult, but possible, 
to maintain such control over a vertex of the skin. 

So, do the browser makers want to add this capability 
of defining a Site to a vertex of the skin? 
The data and syntax is available and could give the user added flexibility in some close applications 
like garment fit testing when several poses are required and the animated skin vertex provides a better sensor location than the animated skeleton. 

Bottom line is can the existing scheme work or do we need extra feature? We need to try and see.

Thanks and Best, 
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
Sent: Mar 28, 2024 11:42 AM
To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

The underbust is mostly required for females and sometimes for larger men.  As for the other feature points - those are the same for men and women. 

I have another question.  A feature point is on the skin, however, it is given as a translation.   But skin vertices have weighting so that proper joints control them.  Is there weighting for the feature points as well so that the they are controlled by the proper joints? 

Thanks 

Carol 

On 03/26/2024 5:29 PM PDT Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:

> A male model - well - that leaves out 50% of the population right there 

Hi Carol, It would be great to have two examples, one male and one female style. 
Of course there should be enough feature points on the surface to be able to dimension either presentation. Are there slightly different points of measurement for the typical male and female.
Seems like there should be more points for a female since, well, since different shape and relationship to shoulders and waist(?). 
Thanks,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
Sent: Mar 20, 2024 7:03 AM
To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy at ksappareldesign.com>
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

My point is the following: it is not "a" male model, but "the" male model as the definite article (the) is used before a noun to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. The indefinite article (a, an) is used before a noun that is general or when its identity is not known. (yes, I had to look this up)

Expanding on this: The measurements are appropriate example for a male model drawn 1:1 scale as derived from a collection of actual measurements. The numbers are relative to 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet.  The measurements are appropriate example for the model that was drawn 1:1 scale with the known symmetrical body shape, as derived from a collection of actual measurements taken off of the virtual humanoid that is in the required I pose, in the x,y,z ordination as required by HAnim, with origin at 0,0,0 between the feet. 

A male model - well - that leaves out 50% of the population right there.  

I am not saying the translations are wrong - just more limited in actual application than first thought. So I can give more translations but I need a way to get the skin surface into Rhino.  If we can get the skin surface into Blender - from Blender, then save as an OBJ file that I can import into Rhino - I can get the translations.  But the underbust will be an approximation as there is no curve changes on the front side of the body. 

Carol 
On 03/20/2024 1:29 AM PDT Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:

>  the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model. 

The measurements are appropriate example for a male model drawn 1:1 scale as derived from a collection of actual measurements. The numbers are relative to 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet. 

Maybe we need to discuss this live to clarify some details. 

Thanks, 
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
Sent: Mar 16, 2024 7:08 AM
To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

I have been looking into this.  And I am agreeing with John's assessment. I will somehow need to get everything into Rhino for visualization and coding. 

>From John on March 14th. 
I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms outside the humanoid.
That's my best guess right now.

What is not noted on the General is the exact file or model for which these translations were built for.  This means that the list of the translations on the website only valid for the humanoid model that they were obtained for, the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model. 

This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. 

https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General

https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA3DefaultSiteTranslations
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations

Is this the model for which the translations are built for?  Can someone send me the proper link? Is this it?  I will see if I can import it into Rhino 8. 
HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d 

Back to updating every 120 points currently listed as to recommendations of how to locate it and adding the additional feature points that I have requested. 
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody

Carol 

On 03/16/2024 4:23 AM PDT John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 2:38 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)> wrote:
> You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry.  I'll be checking those in soon

Great John,
I will check this out soon. 
Any ideas for the 'virtual' feature points? 
All Fine, 
Joe

Joe, do you mean user drawn, not in current standard? User defined points?  I have scripts for sites to place coordinates, but I don't have  a way to get them into the hierarchy yet, so...

John 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)>
Sent: Mar 15, 2024 12:11 AM
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org (mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org)>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net (mailto:cemd2 at comcast.net)>, Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net (mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net)>
Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review

Carol, I'm discovering it makes a difference where you put the Transform in the HAnimSegment as to whether to reuse the center.  I don't have something that doesn't put out warnings yet, or takes the Sites away from the Joints.  Hmm! 
My best Humanoid so far is Humanoid4J.x3d.

I'm going to get some sleep.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 12:53 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com (mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com)> wrote:
Good use of Billboard for annotated feature points 
Please consider this a contribution to the Web3DConsortium examples.  I release my copyright and licensing privileges, and give them copyright and licensing under the normal X3D resources example.

Thanks to Joe and Don for good examples to draw from!

No, I don't have any metadata yet.  Let's set up a time and figure out who all contributed.

You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry.  I'll be checking those in soon.

John

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