[x3d-public] Specification editors mantis issues, PointProperties

Mon Sep 7 07:32:23 PDT 2020

As for dot notation like "Material.emissiveColor": that's 100% my fault :),
I introduced this notation in a few places. It seemed concise and natural
to me, but indeed I don't think it was used before.

I added a Todo for myself to avoid and fix it:)

W dniu pon., 7.09.2020 o 15:41 Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
napisał(a):

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 5:23 AM Michalis Kamburelis
>
> <michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi Andreas,
>
> >
>
> > Very happy to hear that it works nicely! :)
>
> >
>
> > 1. About using per-vertex colors with vertexes (you mentioned "I think
> vertex colors should be treated as diffuse color (or base color for PBR) if
> normals are present"):
>
> >
>
> > This is answered by the spec, by saying "points/lines should behave the
> same as any other geometry" :) So you should follow the Color / ColorRGBA
> nodes specification,
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD2/Part01/components/rendering.html#Color
> . Indeed per-vertex colors just replace "Material.diffuseColor" or
> "PhysicalMaterial.baseColor" or "UnlitMaterial.emissiveColor".
>
>
>
> Ok, in v3.3 emissive was implied (since anything else did not make
>
> sense). As a side note, I am not sure about the shorthand dot notation
>
> for fields of nodes since it is not used consistently in the spec. It
>
> is concise but a bit puzzling if read out of context.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > 2. As for texture coordinates:
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for wiki improvement, I added there additional paragraph:
>
> >
>
> > """
>
> > Note that points/lines (PointSet, LineSet, IndexedLineSet) do not have a
> texCoord field, and so you cannot use nodes like TextureCoordinate or
> TextureCoordinateGenerator with them. This may change in future X3D
> versions (glTF allows texture coordinates on points/lines, just as on other
> geometry nodes).
>
> > """
>
> >
>
> > I would say one day we could introduce "texCoord" field for points/lines
> and thus allow explicit texture coordinates (TextureCoordinate and also
> TextureCoordinateGenerator). Thus we would make points/lines even *more*
> similar to other geometry nodes. glTF allows explicit texture coordinates
> for points, as far as I know, without any special rules (though I didn't
> test it with any glTF viewer).
>
>
>
> ok. There will be a bit of complexity since in theory texCoords could
>
> apply to the area of single point (sprites), or, alternatively and
>
> like in other geometries, across the collection of points, eg. one
>
> texCoords per point.
>
>
>
> Cheers, -Andreas
>
>
>
> >
>
> > 3. I have moved the relevant prose to common section and improved, to
> make it clear what to do in some edge-cases. Comment welcome :)
>
> >
>
> > """"
>
> >
>
> > 11.2.2.5 Points and lines rendering
>
> >
>
> > It is not possible to automatically calculate normal vectors for point
> and line geometry nodes (PointSet, LineSet, IndexedLineSet). Therefore, the
> following rules apply when rendering these nodes:
>
> >
>
> > If the normal field contains a Normal node then points and lines are
> rendered using the same lighting equations as the other geometry and can be
> lit.
>
> >
>
> > If the normal information is not provided (the normal field remains
> NULL) then points and lines are rendered using the "unlit" lighting
> equations, following 17.2.2.4 Unlit lighting model. Authors are advised to
> use UnlitMaterial to customize the look of unlit points and lines.
>
> >
>
> > If the Material node is used together with unlit points and lines, then
> it is rendered as unlit and only the emissiveColor of this node is used.
>
> >
>
> > Note: The emissiveTexture of Material node is ignored in this case.
> Using the Material.emissiveColor is a special rule, only to provide
> compatibility with X3D 3, which is why it is deliberately limited, and
> doesn't provide any way to use Material.emissiveTexture or any
> PhysicalMaterial feature on unlit point and lines.
>
> >
>
> > If any other material node is used together with unlit points and lines,
> then it is rendered as white unlit.
>
> >
>
> > Regardless of the normal field, rendering of the points and lines can be
> customized using textures, Color, ColorRGBA and UnlitMaterial nodes.
>
> >
>
> > """
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Michalis
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > niedz., 6 wrz 2020 o 03:00 Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> napisał(a):
>
> >>
>
> >> The basic point sprites example at
>
> >>
>
> >>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/Points/BasicPointSpritesIndex.html
>
> >>
>
> >> looks good in principle but has a few problems. The MinValue is larger
>
> >> than the MaxValue and the field name is now just attenuation. This
>
> >> line works well for me now:
>
> >>
>
> >> <PointProperties containerField='pointProperties' attenuation='1.0 1.0
>
> >> 0.0' pointSizeMinValue='1' pointSizeMaxValue='100'
>
> >> pointSizeScaleFactor='200'/>
>
> >>
>
> >> Note that the attenuation formula works in world coordinates and that
>
> >> attenuation smaller than 1 can lead to magnification. The formula is
>
> >> somewhat unintuitive and typically leads to the parameters being
>
> >> determined experimentally. But I do not have an idea for another
>
> >> formula.
>
> >>
>
> >> Ok, I figured how to use Game Bar recording on Win10 and sharing with
>
> >> OneDrive: https://1drv.ms/v/s!AuiWzyTgDji2i2JPSxjhuSp0OlOO?e=RJLPab
>
> >>
>
> >> -Andreas
>
> >>
>
> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:16 PM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Working next on sprite texturing for PointProperties, I found it
>
> >> > pretty straightforward to start to support textures of any kind since
>
> >> > the shader or shader generation needs to deal with those already. The
>
> >> > only difference to other geometry is to use gl_PointCoord as tex.
>
> >> > coord, rather than provided tex. coords. This is a simple
>
> >> > intensity-alpha 3x3 PixelTexture mixed with the Material color:
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/pointset_archie_normal.html
>
> >> >
>
> >> > CSS or PBR textures with normal and other nice maps should also work,
>
> >> > for example.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > It looks like it is time to test a bit more and then merge with the
>
> >> > x3dom dev. branch.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Here is another test with 1.5 million points, adopted from
>
> >> > http://metagrid2.sv.vt.edu/~yansh93/catawba_blinn.html
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/catawba50.html
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Lidar surveys easily generate large point clouds like this. The
>
> >> > PointSet is actually much subsampled. I also discovered that the
>
> >> > original binary data has some interesting tail which may or may not be
>
> >> > junk from processing.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > It was difficult to generate and deal with a very large xml file, so I
>
> >> > had to put the data in separate files and load via js. The final scene
>
> >> > is still xml (actually DOM) in memory, generated with a few lines of
>
> >> > js DOM manipulation.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > x3dom has BufferGeometry for binary geometry data (used for glTF)
>
> >> > which becomes really necessary for these kind of datasets. As far as I
>
> >> > remember x3dv4 will not have an equivalent. Maybe I should check how
>
> >> > hard it would be to support PointProperties for BufferGeometry (which
>
> >> > can be points).
>
> >> >
>
> >> > The test shows that vertex colors also work with shading and
>
> >> > PointProperties, after mixing in a white diffuseColor. I think this is
>
> >> > as expected since vertex colors used to be emissive. Actually, I am
>
> >> > changing my mind. I think vertex colors should be treated as diffuse
>
> >> > color (or base color for PBR) if normals are present. Let's see how
>
> >> > this looks in the shader generation for x3dom.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > -Andreas
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Andreas
>
> >> >
>
> >> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 6:06 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > Since both x_ite and
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > http://metagrid2.sv.vt.edu/~yansh93/archimedes_pp_normal.html
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > use circles for point rendering, this x3dom draft implementation now
>
> >> > > also uses circles:
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/pointset_archie_normal.html
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > Circles are only used for untextured points. For textured points,
> eg.
>
> >> > > sprites, the masking for circles will be omitted.
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > Should the spec. require circles for untextured points ? They look
>
> >> > > better but perhaps such a requirement is too opinionated.
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > -Andreas
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:33 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > > I updated the implementation and the scene to reflect the latest
>
> >> > > > changes in the spec. draft:
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/pointset_archie_normal.html
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > > There are no visual differences.
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > > -Andreas
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:08 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > I had some time to refocus on PointProperties and found this
> note on
>
> >> > > > > spec. changes:
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 10:33:40 -0700
>
> >> > > > > > From: Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu>
>
> >> > > > > > To: Michalis Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com>,
>
> >> > > > > >         "puk at igraphics.com" <puk at igraphics.com>
>
> >> > > > > > Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>
> >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Specification editors mantis
> issues: PBR
>
> >> > > > > >         review
>
> >> > > > > > ..
>
> >> > > > > > On 8/24/2020 12:48 PM, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > > [...]
>
> >> > > > > > > Answers are inline below.
>
> >> > > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > > Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>>
> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > >     ---
>
> >> > > > > > >     2. Spec questions.
>
> >> > > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > >     a. see new inquiries today regarding PointProperties
> from Andreas and Holger.? Let's continue/contribute on that thread please.
>
> >> > > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > > I do not see input from Holger in the PointProperties
> thread. If there's some communication off-list, maybe because someone
> forgot to use "Reply All", please resend it to the mailing list :)
>
> >> > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > Separate thread found at
>
> >> > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > [1] [x3d-public] PointProperties revisited
>
> >> > > > > >
> https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-August/013447.html
>
> >> > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > We agreed to remove 'colorMode' and updated both spec &
> Mantis 1252.
>
> >> > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > We replaced final 2 paragraphs in 11.4.11 PointSet with
>
> >> > > > > >
>
> >> > > > > > "If the normal field of the PointSet node contains normal
> vectors, then points are rendered using the same lighting equations as the
> other geometry and can be lit. If the normal vectors are not provided, the
> points are rendered following the "unlit" lighting equations. If the
> PointSet is used with the Material node, and the normal vectors of points
> are not provided, the points shall be rendered as unlit, using the
> emissiveColor field of the Material node. In both cases, the points look
> can be customized using textures, Color, ColorRGBA, and UnlitMaterial
> nodes."
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > That sounds great, and should cover all situations.
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > I developed a first implementation of PointProperties with
> normals,
>
> >> > > > > ignoring textures for now:
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/pointset_archie_normal.html
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > This is the archie example modified to use a diffuseColor
> material for
>
> >> > > > > shading with normals, and a non-default attenuation factor of
> "1 1 0",
>
> >> > > > > eg. with a linear distance dependence.
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > The point size attenuation looks similar to how x_ite is scaling
>
> >> > > > > (x_ite ignores the normals currently), so that is good sign.
> Here is
>
> >> > > > > the x3d xml version:
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > >
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/PointSetNormals/test/regression-suite/test/cases/points/pointset_archie_normal.x3d
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > freeWrl 4.7 does not seem to do the size attenuation with
> distance,
>
> >> > > > > not sure if it is not implemented or another interpretation.
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > Oh, I see that this draft
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > >
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD2/Part01/components/shape.html#PointProperties
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > changed the attenuation field from MFFloat to SFVec3f, and the
> name
>
> >> > > > > from pointSizeAttenuation to just attenuation. Should be a
> quick fix.
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > In the same spirit, I would also suggest renaming
> "pointSizeMinValue"
>
> >> > > > > to "pointSizeMin" or just "sizeMin" (we are in
> _Point_Properties,
>
> >> > > > > after all), and "pointSizeMaxValue" accordingly.
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > -Andreas
>
> >> > > > >
>
> >> > > > > --
>
> >> > > > > Andreas Plesch
>
> >> > > > > Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > >
>
> >> > > > --
>
> >> > > > Andreas Plesch
>
> >> > > > Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > >
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > Andreas Plesch
>
> >> > > Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> > --
>
> >> > Andreas Plesch
>
> >> > Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> --
>
> >> Andreas Plesch
>
> >> Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> x3d-public mailing list
>
> >> x3d-public at web3d.org
>
> >> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Andreas Plesch
>
> Waltham, MA 02453
>
>
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