[x3d-public] Production HAnim X3D JSON seems to still work
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Mon Nov 1 16:09:18 PDT 2021
Should we try the glTF man as an example HAnim JSON model? I think I've
got it on my disk somewhere.
John
On 11/1/21 18:04, John Carlson wrote:
>
> I'm not really seeing glTF being exported as X3D by me. X3DJSONLD.js
> may do it, IDK--try it on my website. I think Michalis is working on
> something, and one could try with Blender.
>
> I'm not really a python programmer, and would tend to dump the .blend
> file as .json (using bpy of course), then translate to XML.
>
> John
>
> On 11/1/21 17:51, John Carlson wrote:
>>
>> I'm getting super tired of this. Of course, I already had a working
>> .x3d example:
>>
>> https://coderextreme.net/X3DJSONLD/src/main/html/x3djoeandjin.html
>>
>> I got the LOA4 diamonds working in FreeWRL. Doesn't work in view3dscene.
>>
>> What exactly did you want? A VRML validator?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 11/1/21 17:45, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> This is fun and innovative and proves depth of x3d but not exactly
>>> what I really would like to see. Have the scene defined by and .x3d
>>> file. Then, for example, import the skeleton or geometries using
>>> json files, then serialize to x3d xml canonical. I think you have
>>> pretty much proven that json can have capabilities to serve as an
>>> encoding for x3d, but I don’t think json needs to be promoted as a
>>> prime transport syntax, like xml and Classic. More like gltf might
>>> serve for certain common components, mainly as a transport scheme
>>> that aligns with typical industry data packages.
>>>
>>> Thanks for all,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 1:38 PM
>>> *To: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>; Brutzman,
>>> Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>; x3d-public at web3d.org;
>>> hanim at web3d.org
>>> *Subject: *Production HAnim X3D JSON seems to still work
>>>
>>> I don't have any checked in code working, but the last production
>>> release seems to work:
>>>
>>> https://coderextreme.net/X3DJSONLD/src/main/html/joeandjin.html
>>>
>>> So if you have pressing work, I can get you a copy of the website.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I don't have releases, I got caught with Ajv not working on
>>> draft 2020-12. See attached image for production website.
>>>
>>> This is with X3DOM and X_ITE.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 11/1/21 12:36, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. get HAnim working
>>>
>>> Fine, how about looking at the joekick model? Or, the LOA4 in
>>> the current spec, Annex A
>>>
>>> 1.JSON is loaded through a URL on the web page.
>>>
>>> The encoding is not the issue since a typical scene may consume
>>> x3d xml x3dclassic, strings, binaries, compressed, encrypted,
>>> with standard and custom subtypes. This point is, _/if/_ the
>>> tool that creates and runs the x3d scene can produce the x3d
>>> text user code in canonical form, then it has to be xml or
>>> classic, right. And, ecma or java. The tool can export code or
>>> data however it wants including all or parts of its internal
>>> forms, but if the current user asks for canonical form or
>>> viewsource of an x3d scene, then the text must be 19776-n and
>>> 19977-n and I think would actually require the xml in order to
>>> get direct authortime validation.
>>>
>>> All Standards | Web3D Consortium
>>> <https://www.web3d.org/standards/all>
>>>
>>> I sent this to hanim because we are looking at the hanim models
>>> in the archive. The quick way to start with hanim is to pick an
>>> loa4 because joints not animated are ignored.
>>>
>>> All Good,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Sunday, October 31, 2021 10:41 PM
>>> *To: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>;
>>> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>;
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>>>
>>> Joe, there are some ways of loading JSON through the runtime in
>>> X3DOM (which uses JSONParser.js), but typically, JSON is loaded
>>> through a URL on the web page. I don't want to overburden my
>>> customers by forcing them to drop into JavaScript. There's
>>> also a different interface for X_ITE as well, and also one can
>>> load JSON through a URL on the web page.
>>>
>>> I think there may still be some issues with HAnim, which need to
>>> be addressed (skeleton field). I will work with you to get
>>> HAnim working with X3DOM and X_ITE. I have many, may issues
>>> with Java code generated from JSON in X3DJSONLD package.
>>> Fixing those may help or hinder us from accomplishing our goals.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 10/31/21 20:45, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone want to discuss SAI for building a scenegraph
>>> from X3DJSON? What approaches are out there?
>>>
>>> Just wondering, or waking up, why would there be a special
>>> SAI for use with json? All I thought I needed was a way to
>>> reliably import/export nodes and parameters ilnto a standard
>>> scenegraph using standard SAI interfaces.
>>>
>>> Sure, using external programming interfaces to build a scene
>>> by authoring or importing nodes and statements and
>>> structures is possible, but regardless the scenegraph is
>>> built from nodes and statements that may be emitted from and
>>> external and internal scripts activated when the scene is
>>> initialized using the spec SAI.
>>>
>>> At this point I still think of the json as a way to store
>>> some data and some organized way for import into the x3d
>>> scenegraph using the spec interfaces for external and
>>> external programming. Bite my lip, but why think of a
>>> scenegraph built entirely for json? How can I say no way,
>>> too verbose😊I don’t think there needs to be a canonical
>>> form for a scene built from json, like for x3d xml and x3d
>>> Classic. I think it is more appropriate to think of the Json
>>> as imported into or from the scene and integrated into the
>>> scenegraph to be accessible by SAI using the existing SAI
>>> with the canonical user code in XML or Classic (same
>>> interfaces for both).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> *Sent: *Saturday, October 30, 2021 3:52 PM
>>> *To: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman,
>>> Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>;
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>>>
>>> 1. Is there a modeling language which encompasses
>>> everything we want to do with schemas and semantics?
>>>
>>> We have a modeling language that encompasses objects and
>>> object interactions in real time with specific control of
>>> the time. At the most abstract is it metaontologies
>>> connected to metadata connecting to real and virtual objects
>>> with interactive event processing?
>>>
>>> 2. textual SysML
>>>
>>> Is any of this usable in x3d? Ports, parts, and connectors
>>> to start. If it works then writing this language could be a
>>> guide to showing flows and interactions in simulations and
>>> realtime?
>>>
>>> For me, the JSON should be standardized when it can be
>>> clearly shown to be an accurate set of rules when
>>> transcoding between the XML, the Classic, and the JSON,
>>> given the idea that the XML is the defining schema. That is,
>>> for a given set of data, equivalent results can be produced
>>> to and from equivalent data in other standard forms.
>>>
>>> Now, for the SAI, are we past just system of defining and
>>> validating syntax and data structures for textual
>>> x3dscenegraphs and now are looking for connects between
>>> these great achievements and some way to abstractly define
>>> and validate event processing by the scene object and
>>> internal and external objects composing the scene from
>>> internal and external events? Then not only can be validate
>>> the user code but also validate event processing without
>>> actually having to run the thing.
>>>
>>> That is where the sysML comes in, maybe, is laying out the
>>> hierarchy and structures of the processes and flows in a
>>> project. Like showing that these two things are things and
>>> when this thing is started, then this other thing also
>>> should start, and if one takes too long then this should
>>> happen. I think the x3d scengraph can precisely document
>>> timing and event flows that the user has defined, so a
>>> competent x3d authoring system should be able to validate
>>> the syntax and structures and event flows and timing within
>>> the scenegraph at any operating point.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Friday, October 29, 2021 3:18 PM
>>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
>>> <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>; x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>>>
>>> Note that encodings, bindings and schemas are different
>>> things, except that bindings are starting to look a lot like
>>> encodings now. JSON schema has not yet achieved
>>> standardization, we are using draft 2020-12, and it looks a
>>> bit like the JSON schema crew are having a bit of an issue
>>> getting a standards body to endorse it. Since both glTF
>>> and X3D could make use of a JSON schema standard, I
>>> recommend that either Khronos and/or Web3d consortium
>>> suggest a standards body to the JSON schema folks.
>>> Something like ECMA seems like a natural fit.
>>>
>>> Note that X3D JSON schema depends on JSON schema for vocabulary.
>>>
>>> In the early days of X3DJSON I looked for something that
>>> would convert XML schema to JSON schema, but it looked like
>>> any tool were were going to use would not match what we were
>>> creating with X3D JSON. I don’t know if there’s sufficient
>>> umph in XMLSpy to do it, but we might consider a
>>> post-processing tool.
>>>
>>> I may still have code around that converts xsd to owl to
>>> vowl if anyone is interested.
>>>
>>> Another place we might place effort is a validating API for
>>> X3D JSON. I view that as a valuable task, but I don’t have
>>> the personal passion or brainpower to push it through. First
>>> things first. You probably shouldn’t write parser without a
>>> specification.
>>>
>>> This is pretty much the 5th JSON schema draft we’ve
>>> developed for, not counting all the X3D versions.
>>>
>>> We have X3DJSONLD deployed in 2 browsers and on sourceforge.
>>> Does anyone want to discuss SAI for building a scenegraph
>>> from X3DJSON? What approaches are out there?
>>>
>>> What’s worrying me is the lack of expressively in X3DUOM
>>> compared to other schemas (geoSystem, oneOf). Perhaps we
>>> should convert to a textual SysML? Is there a modeling
>>> language which encompasses everything we want to do with
>>> schemas and semantics?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2021, at 2:10 AM, Brutzman, Donald (Don)
>>> (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Joe. The USE pattern we were working on in the X3D
>>> JSON Schema was common to all nodes, not just HAnim
>>> nodes. So no change of functionality expected.
>>>
>>> We are always striving for consistent expressive power
>>> for all the different language bindings and file encodings.
>>>
>>> We have 3950 X3D Examples to test. More are always
>>> welcome for the archives if you think that further
>>> coverage is needed of some capability.
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>> --
>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000
>>> USA +1.831.656.2149
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
>>> *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> *Sent: *Sunday, October 24, 2021 5:12 PM
>>> *To: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>;
>>> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
>>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>>> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> *Subject: *RE: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>>>
>>> Hi John, Getting this to work will help. Are you looking
>>> for examples to validate, beginning with a .x3d file?
>>>
>>> If I can include USE in the HanimDisplacer pt. then I
>>> can include USE as Interpolator key and value fields(?)
>>>
>>> Including a USE in any of the HAnim… nodes Joints,
>>> Segments, Sites is not going to work unless, well, I
>>> can’t really see how it would work in a ‘standard’ humanoid.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Sunday, October 24, 2021 11:44 AM
>>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
>>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>>> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>>>
>>> Don, schema is here, python seems to be working with
>>> added metaschema checks.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/tree/master/src/main/schema
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcoderextreme%2FX3DJSONLD%2Ftree%2Fmaster%2Fsrc%2Fmain%2Fschema&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C51fbb182092b4d5bb02c08d9974c199c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637707175517256956%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ZcklHNEBEtinlpnaTacqhx6dQUY2X0MYdh7vhMIRo1M%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> Next on agenda is bpy to JSON conversion, possibly with
>>> added GUI/X3D conversion tool.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Oct 18, 2021, at 5:09 PM, Brutzman, Donald (Don)
>>> (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John and I reviewed his latest schema today and
>>> discussed various design considerations.
>>>
>>> His latest version, generated by a Python program
>>> reading X3DUOM, is found as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/src/main/schema/x3d-4.0-JSONSchema.json
>>>
>>> Looking at the result in Firefox was helpful because
>>> that has a great way to look at JSON which allowed
>>> us to iconize/expand (fold/unfold) as needed.
>>> Excerpt follows.
>>>
>>> The result looks great. One refinement John will
>>> handle: for nodes with a USE field, no -children
>>> nodes are permitted.
>>>
>>> Once he has the next version, I will check it into
>>> the specifications directory (next to X3D XML Schema
>>> and XML DOCTYPE).
>>>
>>> At that point we are ready to begin further
>>> validation efforts using multivarious tools against
>>> the many X3D examples in JSON, such as
>>>
>>> 2. https://savage.nps.edu/Savage/GroundVehicles/Jeep/Jeep.json
>>>
>>> Testing without regex patterns is good for now. A
>>> prior version had acceptable regex, so that appears
>>> to be do-able.
>>>
>>> Having fun with X3D JSON! 8)
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>
>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA
>>> 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
>>>
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https://
>>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
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