[x3d-public] xml:lang language identification, relation to Annotations component

Thu Nov 25 08:03:56 PST 2021

Also please note that the draft Annotations component was closely considered by our working group and Web3DUX experts, but ultimately not accepted for X3D4.  Further work was recommended on implementations and to also show feasibility of providing annotations compatibly using HTML.  So formalization and possible adoption of an Annotations component remains future work.

all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> On Behalf Of Richard Puk
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 1:06 PM
To: 'John Carlson' <yottzumm at gmail.com>; 'Jakub Flotyński' <flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl>
Cc: 'X3D-Public' <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language identification

Hi, John –

Annotations may depict the content of a Metadata node but are not in themselves considered metadata.

  *   Dick

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From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org>> On Behalf Of John Carlson
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 12:28 PM
To: Jakub Flotyński <flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl<mailto:flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl>>
Cc: X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language identification

Does metadata include annotations?

Thanks!

John

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 10:59 AM Jakub Flotyński <flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl<mailto:flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl>> wrote:

Hi All,

we had a short discussion with Don about the transformation of different XMP nodes and attributes to RDF. A general idea is to have an overview of the XMP specification available at:

https://wwwimages2.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/xmp/pdfs/XMP%20SDK%20Release%20cc-2016-08/XMPSpecificationPart1.pdf<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwwimages2.adobe.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Facom%2Fen%2Fdevnet%2Fxmp%2Fpdfs%2FXMP%2520SDK%2520Release%2520cc-2016-08%2FXMPSpecificationPart1.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C060cdcb887f24b8172c908d9aec523d6%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637732985235507576%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=OPwKvi2XZSfOqOBl5eZkNi%2FlmaC07w7eV0Ur0ml5RZ4%3D&reserved=0>

and determine groups of XMP nodes and attributes that would require different transformation to RDF nodes and attributes. In such a case, we could have a pretty uniform approach to various metadata entities, while maintaining possibility to extend the transformation with new nodes and attributes.

Best regards
Jakub

W dniu 19.11.2021 o 11:03, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) pisze:
We had a useful discussion about xml:lang in Thursday weekly CAD DPS call, had similar thinking going on.

I will be confirming with Jakub next week (using our XMP test model) whether  <MetatadaString name=”xml:lang” value=”EN”/> is always preferable to attribute xml:lang=’EN’ because it is portable across all varieties of X3D.

Whether or not to include attribute xml:lang=’EN’ in DOCTYPE/Schema: either add it everywhere since it is legal XML, or else not at all so that validation warnings are indeed thrown (since it is likely not the recommended approach).

all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>

From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com><mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 5:58 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu><mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: vmarchetti at kshell.com<mailto:vmarchetti at kshell.com>; X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org><mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>; Jakub Flotyński <flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl><mailto:flotynski at kti.ue.poznan.pl>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language identification

I suggest getting xml:lang into X3DUOM before JSON Schema, but we can do some hard coding into the schema generator if pretesting is desired.   An example JSON schema snippet would be required.

Also consider “subclassing” xml:lang for our own purposes, including supporting locales in MFStrings perhaps.

I think full testing of existing JSON schema in python,Java, and JavaScript would be desired before proceeding.
Sent from my iPad

On Nov 17, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>> wrote:

Thanks for review comments.

I agree that using MetadataString for xml:lang definitions is a good approach for portable X3D mappings within MetadataSet collections.  Indeed that was the original approach we tried in the XMP mapping.  Further scrutiny will be needed to see if it can support multiple xml:lang definitions for a given value, that might be a separate design pattern.  Jakub and I will continue to look closely at this.

Meanwhile, the xml:lang attribute is allowed by XML.  Thus am still looking to add it to X3D XML Schema and DOCTYPE (and possibly X3D JSON schema) as an attribute allowed during XML validation, at least for the handful of X3D use cases where it might make sense.  Flagging presence of xml:lang values as erroneous would be a “false negative,” meaning an incorrect error diagnostic.

all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>

From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org>> On Behalf Of John Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 6:53 AM
To: vmarchetti at kshell.com<mailto:vmarchetti at kshell.com>
Cc: X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language identification

Thanks, Vince.   That’s pretty much what I wanted to say.  I don’t know if schemas can apply xml:lang to an attribute in all XML documents guided by the schema.   I don’t think that would make sense.   I am not arguing a position, because I have not studied.

I’ve had problems with namespaced attribute names in the past.   I suggest we go through a thorough test after any updates to X3DUOM.

John

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 16, 2021, at 6:24 PM, vmarchetti at kshell.com<mailto:vmarchetti at kshell.com> wrote:

On Nov 16, 2021, at 6:00 PM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>> wrote:

XML allows identification of language via the reserved xml:lang attribute on any attribute.

  *   XML Recommendation, fifth edition, W3C, section2.12 Language Identification
  *   https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FREC-xml%2F%23sec-lang-tag&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C060cdcb887f24b8172c908d9aec523d6%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637732985235517531%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YKbNBPTDV3CbXMGlgpTmu0W4B%2Fur9LnluSzaPcB4GKE%3D&reserved=0>

and

  *   W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) 1.1 Part 2: Datatypes, W3C Recommendation 5 April 2012 section 3.4.3 language
  *   https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#language<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fxmlschema11-2%2F%23language&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C060cdcb887f24b8172c908d9aec523d6%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637732985235527491%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QsTo4roaikcZ2%2BZ4aswkFEu%2FBpRq1z4E0qW3AJcJUv8%3D&reserved=0>

These excerpts from the XML documents assert that the xml:lang attribute is not as granular as applying to individual attributes, but applies at
the XML element level, and so to all the attributes and subelements , with some clear rules for overriding the xml:lang attribute in sub-elements.

With that in mind, I think that the function of the xml:lang attribute can, in the X3D abstract specification, be performed by a MetadataString node which can be applied to any X3D node, including
other Metadata nodes. The advantage of this approach would be that the language attribution can be readily transferred between different encodings of the same X3D content.

Today while working on XMP metadata transcription from RDF/XML (or TTL) form into X3D/XML form, Jakub and I found that we needed to utilize xml:lang attribute for lossless two-way conversion.

I can think of the following X3D elements that might need to indicate which identification of human language might be appropriate:

  *   Text node (corresponding to ‘string’ field)
  *   MetadataString
  *   <field> and <fieldValue> declarations, if type is SFString/MFString

Conceivably we might also permit this whenever a description field is present also (Viewpoint, sensors, etc.).

Not looking to change X3D expressive power but think that xml:lang information ought to be permissible in X3D XML encoding since it is an allowed part of XML.

Thus am planning to add xml:lang as indicated above in the X3D XML Schema and X3D XML DOCTYPE to avoid incorrect, misleading validation errors.

Any other considerations appropriate?  Will enter Mantis issue when ready to proceed.  All comments welcome.

all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>

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