[x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Sun Oct 31 22:40:55 PDT 2021
Joe, there are some ways of loading JSON through the runtime in X3DOM
(which uses JSONParser.js), but typically, JSON is loaded through a URL
on the web page. I don't want to overburden my customers by forcing them
to drop into JavaScript. There's also a different interface for X_ITE
as well, and also one can load JSON through a URL on the web page.
I think there may still be some issues with HAnim, which need to be
addressed (skeleton field). I will work with you to get HAnim working
with X3DOM and X_ITE. I have many, may issues with Java code generated
from JSON in X3DJSONLD package. Fixing those may help or hinder us
from accomplishing our goals.
Thanks!
John
On 10/31/21 20:45, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>
> Does anyone want to discuss SAI for building a scenegraph from
> X3DJSON? What approaches are out there?
>
> Just wondering, or waking up, why would there be a special SAI for use
> with json? All I thought I needed was a way to reliably import/export
> nodes and parameters ilnto a standard scenegraph using standard SAI
> interfaces.
>
> Sure, using external programming interfaces to build a scene by
> authoring or importing nodes and statements and structures is
> possible, but regardless the scenegraph is built from nodes and
> statements that may be emitted from and external and internal scripts
> activated when the scene is initialized using the spec SAI.
>
> At this point I still think of the json as a way to store some data
> and some organized way for import into the x3d scenegraph using the
> spec interfaces for external and external programming. Bite my lip,
> but why think of a scenegraph built entirely for json? How can I say
> no way, too verbose😊I don’t think there needs to be a canonical form
> for a scene built from json, like for x3d xml and x3d Classic. I think
> it is more appropriate to think of the Json as imported into or from
> the scene and integrated into the scenegraph to be accessible by SAI
> using the existing SAI with the canonical user code in XML or Classic
> (same interfaces for both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
> *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
> *Sent: *Saturday, October 30, 2021 3:52 PM
> *To: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don)
> (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>; x3d-public at web3d.org
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>
> * Is there a modeling language which encompasses everything we want
> to do with schemas and semantics?
>
> We have a modeling language that encompasses objects and object
> interactions in real time with specific control of the time. At the
> most abstract is it metaontologies connected to metadata connecting to
> real and virtual objects with interactive event processing?
>
> * textual SysML
>
> Is any of this usable in x3d? Ports, parts, and connectors to start.
> If it works then writing this language could be a guide to showing
> flows and interactions in simulations and realtime?
>
> For me, the JSON should be standardized when it can be clearly shown
> to be an accurate set of rules when transcoding between the XML, the
> Classic, and the JSON, given the idea that the XML is the defining
> schema. That is, for a given set of data, equivalent results can be
> produced to and from equivalent data in other standard forms.
>
> Now, for the SAI, are we past just system of defining and validating
> syntax and data structures for textual x3dscenegraphs and now are
> looking for connects between these great achievements and some way to
> abstractly define and validate event processing by the scene object
> and internal and external objects composing the scene from internal
> and external events? Then not only can be validate the user code but
> also validate event processing without actually having to run the thing.
>
> That is where the sysML comes in, maybe, is laying out the hierarchy
> and structures of the processes and flows in a project. Like showing
> that these two things are things and when this thing is started, then
> this other thing also should start, and if one takes too long then
> this should happen. I think the x3d scengraph can precisely document
> timing and event flows that the user has defined, so a competent x3d
> authoring system should be able to validate the syntax and structures
> and event flows and timing within the scenegraph at any operating point.
>
> Joe
>
> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, October 29, 2021 3:18 PM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>;
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>
> Note that encodings, bindings and schemas are different things, except
> that bindings are starting to look a lot like encodings now. JSON
> schema has not yet achieved standardization, we are using draft
> 2020-12, and it looks a bit like the JSON schema crew are having a bit
> of an issue getting a standards body to endorse it. Since both glTF
> and X3D could make use of a JSON schema standard, I recommend that
> either Khronos and/or Web3d consortium suggest a standards body to the
> JSON schema folks. Something like ECMA seems like a natural fit.
>
> Note that X3D JSON schema depends on JSON schema for vocabulary.
>
> In the early days of X3DJSON I looked for something that would convert
> XML schema to JSON schema, but it looked like any tool were were going
> to use would not match what we were creating with X3D JSON. I don’t
> know if there’s sufficient umph in XMLSpy to do it, but we might
> consider a post-processing tool.
>
> I may still have code around that converts xsd to owl to vowl if
> anyone is interested.
>
> Another place we might place effort is a validating API for X3D JSON.
> I view that as a valuable task, but I don’t have the personal passion
> or brainpower to push it through. First things first. You probably
> shouldn’t write parser without a specification.
>
> This is pretty much the 5th JSON schema draft we’ve developed for, not
> counting all the X3D versions.
>
> We have X3DJSONLD deployed in 2 browsers and on sourceforge. Does
> anyone want to discuss SAI for building a scenegraph from X3DJSON?
> What approaches are out there?
>
> What’s worrying me is the lack of expressively in X3DUOM compared to
> other schemas (geoSystem, oneOf). Perhaps we should convert to a
> textual SysML? Is there a modeling language which encompasses
> everything we want to do with schemas and semantics?
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 25, 2021, at 2:10 AM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
> <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Joe. The USE pattern we were working on in the X3D JSON Schema
> was common to all nodes, not just HAnim nodes. So no change of
> functionality expected.
>
> We are always striving for consistent expressive power for all the
> different language bindings and file encodings.
>
> We have 3950 X3D Examples to test. More are always welcome for
> the archives if you think that further coverage is needed of some
> capability.
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
> *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 24, 2021 5:12 PM
> *To: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald
> (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>
> Hi John, Getting this to work will help. Are you looking for
> examples to validate, beginning with a .x3d file?
>
> If I can include USE in the HanimDisplacer pt. then I can include
> USE as Interpolator key and value fields(?)
>
> Including a USE in any of the HAnim… nodes Joints, Segments, Sites
> is not going to work unless, well, I can’t really see how it would
> work in a ‘standard’ humanoid.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
> *From: *John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 24, 2021 11:44 AM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] JSON Schema meeting minutes
>
> Don, schema is here, python seems to be working with added
> metaschema checks.
>
> https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/tree/master/src/main/schema
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcoderextreme%2FX3DJSONLD%2Ftree%2Fmaster%2Fsrc%2Fmain%2Fschema&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C51fbb182092b4d5bb02c08d9974c199c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637707175517256956%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ZcklHNEBEtinlpnaTacqhx6dQUY2X0MYdh7vhMIRo1M%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Next on agenda is bpy to JSON conversion, possibly with added
> GUI/X3D conversion tool.
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 18, 2021, at 5:09 PM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
> <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> John and I reviewed his latest schema today and discussed
> various design considerations.
>
> His latest version, generated by a Python program reading
> X3DUOM, is found as follows:
>
> * https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/src/main/schema/x3d-4.0-JSONSchema.json
>
> Looking at the result in Firefox was helpful because that has
> a great way to look at JSON which allowed us to iconize/expand
> (fold/unfold) as needed. Excerpt follows.
>
> The result looks great. One refinement John will handle: for
> nodes with a USE field, no -children nodes are permitted.
>
> Once he has the next version, I will check it into the
> specifications directory (next to X3D XML Schema and XML DOCTYPE).
>
> At that point we are ready to begin further validation efforts
> using multivarious tools against the many X3D examples in
> JSON, such as
>
> * https://savage.nps.edu/Savage/GroundVehicles/Jeep/Jeep.json
>
> Testing without regex patterns is good for now. A prior
> version had acceptable regex, so that appears to be do-able.
>
> Having fun with X3D JSON! 8)
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
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