[x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 8 APR 2022: PointProperties splatGeometry for X3D4.1, is markerTpe acceptable now?
GPU Group
gpugroup at gmail.com
Tue Apr 12 09:35:54 PDT 2022
PointProperties > MarkerType continued:
Or
PointProperties
SFNode SplatTexture NULL
and new Texture node:
MarkerTexture: TextureNode {
SFNode markerGeometry NULL [geometry2D]
MFInt32 markerParts []
SFInt32 okto -1
}
With this method, the MarkerTexture would be rendered from geometry2D, or a
combination of prepared geometry elements, or an okto symbol number, into
an RGBA format with RGB=111 and A = 0-1.
Then when used as splatTexture it would be applied as a transparency filter
to any parent Appearance texture or used with Appearance color as splat
texture.
On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 9:18 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Doug, thanks for excellent inputs. Nicholas was describing these kinds of
> concerns as well.
>
>
>
> Dick and I have not been able to find any proposals about splats or
> splatGeometry. We will be happy to add such recommendations as Mantis
> issues for X3D 4.1. CAD Design Printing Scanning working group is a
> stakeholder too.
>
>
>
> We can’t add any new nodes to X3D4 at this late stage.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile, the PointProperties markerType capabilities we posted were
> finishing up previously defined work in X3D 4.0.
>
>
>
> - X3D3 Architecture draft, Shape component, PointProperties
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/shape.html#PointProperties
>
>
>
> So the remaining open question is whether markerType is OK for inclusion
> in X3D4. Given your post, and given that additional markerType glyphs can
> be added, it seems compatible. Am not seeing any showstoppers yet, and
> having simple authoring capabilities now in X3D4 is helpful… but we don’t
> want to break anything in the future either.
>
>
>
> Key question: is the addition of markerType acceptable for X3D4, or should
> it be deferred to X3D4.1 for co-design with splatGeometry?
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> *On Behalf Of *GPU Group
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 12, 2022 5:29 AM
> *To:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 8 APR 2022: C/C++/C#,
> binding events under inactive branches of Switch or LOD
>
>
>
> PointProperties >
>
> SFInt32 markerType 0
>
> could be changed to
>
> SFNode splatGeometry NULL
>
> when NULL a 2D square would be used as default
>
> Otherwise a 2D geometry node could be used.
>
> And a new node
>
> Marker2D : Geometry2D
>
> MFInt32 parts []
>
> SFInt32 standard -1
>
> If standard is set, it refers to the Okta table
>
> if parts are used, it's a list of parts of markers which can be combined
> to make a complex marker:
>
> 0 circle (line)
>
> 1 X
>
> 2 +
>
> 3 --
>
> 4 |
>
> 5 /
>
> 6 \
>
> 7 circle fill quadrant 1
>
> 8 circle fill quadrant 2
>
> 9 circle fill quadrant 3
>
> 10 circle fill quadrant 4
>
> 11 5 prong star
>
> ...
>
> The marker geometry can optionally be compiled to a splat-friendly texture
> by the PointProperties, or used as triangles with uv, for any color or
> textures set in Appearance.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 11:25 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> PointProperties.markerType
>
> In theory the markerType symbols/patterns could be done with either
>
> a) 2D mesh/triangles/geometry with texture coords for each vertex OR
>
> b) splat/sprite texture on simple 2-triangle rectangle
>
> For a) 2D mesh approach, any Appearance.ImageTexture would be applied as
> texture on the geometry
>
> -- if that is the default interpretation/benchmark, and a browser wants to
> implement as b) splat, then a similar effect would need to be achieved when
> combining appearance texture with splat texture.
>
> -Doug
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 10:55 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Doug Sanden, Don
> Brutzman.
>
>
>
> We successfully held our regular weekly X3D meeting today, 08-0900
> pacific. Agenda topics follow.
>
>
>
> -
> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C39f008b05faf4c0a138e08da1c801daf%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637853633836886288%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5Cu4JjmY2RZ1JNxGLmxz2mxaGDHYYg1n26NCWj53Nqw%3D&reserved=0>
> - https://zoom.us/j/148206572
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C39f008b05faf4c0a138e08da1c801daf%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637853633836886288%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yuJbVhTu68cvrZlnVxYOK%2F1lD%2B6%2FJ3YxdbtVq0oL2D4%3D&reserved=0>
> Password 483805
> - https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>
>
>
> 1. New weekly agenda item: review ballot items from INCITS H3 (U.S.
> Standards Body) and W3C.
>
>
>
> We reviewed procedures and voted on two ballots for US. National Body.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. Web3D 2022 Conference preparations are progressing well. Call for
> Papers is now approved and available!
>
>
>
> - http://web3d.siggraph.org
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C39f008b05faf4c0a138e08da1c801daf%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637853633836886288%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PiAR4PiDr5Id3Bi7um8FLq9%2FyHrxcZVCmVNdyRL3Rg4%3D&reserved=0>
> - https://web3d.siggraph.org/web3d-2022-call-for-papers
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fweb3d-2022-call-for-papers&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C39f008b05faf4c0a138e08da1c801daf%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637853633836886288%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JUa5Gj5vWKf%2F%2B2EVJ9jfq5u2KQ1VRbHfkOsqc2KaBak%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Web3D 2022: 27th International Conference on 3D Web Technology will be
> November 2-4. Dates of interest:
>
>
>
> Submission July 23rd, 2022
>
> Papers
>
> Tutorials
>
> Workshops
>
> Notification Sept. 15th, 2022
>
> Final version 01/10/2022
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. X3D Scene Access Interface (SAI) draft specifications for C, C++,
> C# language bindings available for comment.
>
>
>
> - [x3d-public] X3D C/C++/C# CD texts approval for ISO submission -
> public comments requested
> -
> https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2022-April/017073.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-3v3.3-CD
> C
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-4v3.3-CD
> C++
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-5v3.3-CD
> C#
>
>
>
> Our plan is to proceed with international review of version 3.3 of these
> specifications, then upgrade to 4.0 once X3D4 Architecture is complete and
> then X3D4 SAI 19775-2 abstract specification is similarly updated.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. Our current top priority is resolving Mantis review issues, in
> order to finalize X3D4 Architecture for Draft International Standard
> submission to ISO.
>
>
>
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/Architecture.html
>
>
>
> 1. PointProperties markerType: does it look OK?
>
>
>
> - [x3d-public] X3D minutes, Friday 1 APR 2022: glTF X3D4 video, mantis
> issues, PointProperties markerType
> -
> https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2022-April/017049.html
>
>
>
> - X3D4 Architecture, Shape component, 12.4.7 PointProperties
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/shape.html#PointProperties
>
>
>
> We had insightful discussion, the following was added to Mantis.
>
>
>
> - Mantis 1393: 12.4.7 PointProperties missing markerType field
> - https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1393
>
>
>
> Where is point sprite (or point splat) proposal?
>
> Is this aligned satisfactorily/sufficiently with common practices for
> point visualization? Seems compatible with other symbology.
>
> Can we
> - control transparency? (background fully transparent, no control provided)
> - control color? (yes, by Material or Color node with indices/order)
> - specify other images/icons/glyphs/sprite? (yes, but requires
> coordination)
>
> If accepted, needs mention in 11.4.12 PointSet
>
> If accepted, needs integration with prior/existing work (including X3DOM
> implementation)
>
> If not accepted, needs to be deferred to X3D4.1
>
> Proposing additional markerTypes to ISO corresponding to these other
> approaches is a useful option to us.
>
> Goal: resolve during April 2022.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. Mantis 1192: 07.2.2 Bindable children nodes - Undefined results if
> bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic
>
> https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192
>
> Spec sayeth:
> "The results are undefined if a bindable node is bound and is the child of
> an LOD, Switch, or any node or prototype that disables its children."
>
> This leads to all manner of inconsistent problems among scenes. It also
> means that Inline node (which may or may not include bindable nodes) has
> undefined behavior under LOD/Switch/etc.
>
> As a result, in addition to indeterminate X3D browser behavior, it means
> that X3D scenes are not fully composable. That is contrary to X3D design
> objectives.
>
> Different prose and deterministic guidelines is needed in this section
> that provides clear rules for binding/unbinding nodes when they become
> active within LOD/Switch/etc. Small adaptations to current binding rules
> can likely address this problem satisfactorily.
>
> Request review and comment on the following suggested resolution. The
> intent is to reinforce author modeling choices over independent browser
> optimization.
>
> “Sending a set_bind event to a bindable node that is a child of a
> Switch node is typically ignored, respecting the selection logic of the
> parent Switch.
>
> Since different levels of an LOD node are intended to be visually
> similar and only varying in terms of level of detail, sending a set_bind
> event to a bindable node that is a child of an LOD typically binds that
> node and also activates the corresponding level in the LOD.
>
> Even if event behavior is ignored, such occurrences may be reported
> via a console (if available).”
>
>
>
> Group review comments, added to Mantis 1192:
>
> - For Switch, avoid “typically” and make phrasing unambiguous that the
> autoselection occurs.
> - For bindable nodes, note that they remain active on their respective
> binding stack.
> - If you have a bound Viewpoint under a selected Switch child, and a
> different Switch child becomes selected, is that current Viewpoint
> unbound? We would expect so…
>
>
> If this is too complex, we should defer to X3D4.1. This nevertheless is a
> reduction of the “browser response is undefined” space. Let's get this
> potential refinement sorted out as best possible, then assess if resolves
> the issue satisfactorily, and then approve or else defer to 4.1.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas noted prior work on “Plans for Merging X3D AR Proposals”
> proposal, we added this to Mantis as deferred work for X3D4.1 specification.
>
>
>
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/wiki/index.php/Plans_for_Merging_X3D_AR_Proposals
> - https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1394
>
>
>
> Have fun with X3D! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
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