[x3d-public] X3D/VRML Multiuser - WebRTC/AJAX

Sat Apr 16 21:59:53 PDT 2022

Good Morning John,

Please find some answers inline (marked by [CPV:]).

All the best
Christoph

Gesendet: Sonntag, 17. April 2022 um 00:33 Uhr
Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
Cc: "Kevin" <klw71 at yahoo.com>, "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>, "vmarchetti at kshell.com" <vmarchetti at kshell.com>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D/VRML Multiuser - WebRTC/AJAX

I’m not sure there’s much contention anymore. X3D and glTF both support binary (AFAIK) or at least EXI (see X3DJSONLD website) and UTF-8.  Obviously ASCII-only doesn’t really fly for an ISO standard.
[CPV:] That's probably true, but what the heck is the connection to our topic here?

One can start with simple data and add complexity later.  Profiles…
[CPV:] same comment

I am fairly sure the standardized? fetch() method can do a lot for at least client-server communication.  I don’t know if it can push tons of data though, such as video, which is why WebRTC is preferred for peer-peer communication.
[CPV:] I don't see a principle difference between AJAX and the fetch() method, so I guess the consortium will accept fetch(), too, in replacement of AJAX. Thanks for the hint.

AJAX can be overly complex, but I doubt if people are doing live video over AJAX.   Prove me wrong.
[CPV:] it was never my intention to transmit video over AJAX. This is clearly a job for WebRTC

I believe that Discord and VS Code are built with similar technology.  I think that Electron may be a preferred technology stack now.  YMMV
[CPV:] Discord, VS Code and Electron are technologies, which are not in the scope of the S&P-ARK project. They would just create additional dependencies.

Check out glTF extensions for VS Code!
[CPV:] same comment

Perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to integrate X3DOM and X_ITE into VS Code?  Or just use a pre-existing VRML extension?  Michalis, do you have some info on VRML and CGE in VS Code?
[CPV:] the easiest thing for what purpose?

As Ballmer said, “Developers, developers, developers”

John

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 3:13 AM Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]> wrote:Hi Vince, Hi all,

Thank you for this additional information.

Finally I have found the original e-mail I was referring to: it was written by Leonard D. on Mon Mar 11 07:48:58 PDT 2019.

Citing Leonard D.:

Subject: Network Sensor & Protocols

[...]I chaired the Networking Sensor WG many years ago. There was a
fundamental disagreement as to what should be passed between clients --
whether it was real simple data (e.g., position, orientation) in a data
structure understood by agreement of the clients (mostly because the one
person wrote all code) or a more general structure that handled a
variety of data types. Other contentious points were binary vs. ASCII
(now UTF-8/16) or perhaps something else; and whether the communication
required a server or was strictly between clients (browsers). The
simplest case amounted to the Network Sensor being a wrapper around the
operating system's socket interface.

However it is decided, any X3D Network Sensor will need to be compatible
with WebRTC when X3D is running in the web browser if the Network Sensor
is to run between clients or AJAX if running between client and server.
There are many restrictions and/or conventions that need to followed or
handled. Two of them are: 1) The port needs to be compatible with
corporate firewalls (pretty much restricts to 80 and 443, though some
others are available). 2) If the communication is to the server, then
the design needs to take into account CORS (Cross-Origin Resource Sharing).

Leonard Daly[...]

Question: is it still valid?

Thanks,
Christoph

Gesendet: Freitag, 15. April 2022 um 16:33 Uhr
Von: "vmarchetti at kshell.com[mailto:vmarchetti at kshell.com]" <vmarchetti at kshell.com[mailto:vmarchetti at kshell.com]>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>, "X3D-Public" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org]>
Cc: "Kevin" <klw71 at yahoo.com[mailto:klw71 at yahoo.com]>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D/VRML Multiuser - WebRTC/AJAX

Joe Williams posted this to x3d-public on Mar 10 2022.
It references an implementation rather than a standards decision by the X3D Working Group

Vince Marchetti

Found from 06, 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160328040324/http://www.hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/index.htm#Start[https://web.archive.org/web/20160328040324/http:/www.hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/index.htm#Start][https://web.archive.org/web/20160328040324/http://www.hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/index.htm#Start[https://web.archive.org/web/20160328040324/http:/www.hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/index.htm%23Start]]

to

https://web.archive.org/web/20160331112316/http://hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/T0.htm[https://web.archive.org/web/20160331112316/http:/hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/T0.htm][https://web.archive.org/web/20160331112316/http://hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/T0.htm%5Bhttps://web.archive.org/web/20160331112316/http:/hypermultimedia.com/ajax3d/T0.htm%5D]

and the rest, 
where x3d in object could use XMLHttpRequest client/server interface when hosted by DOM browser. 

Since Tony did such a great exercise in the original out of MediaMachines, I “made it mine” and did a Joe version. 

Amazing, looks like it still all there and almost works except no Hello because no Flux Player™, and looks like canvas has solid support over object or iframe? Is the XMLHR a thing? 
Old Fun,
Joe _______________________________________________
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On Apr 15, 2022, at 3:20 AM, Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]> wrote: 

Dear all,

I am sorry to bother you again with this topic.

I remember someone (was it Joe?) wrote at the mailing list about a decision of the consortium:
If a Web3D scene is hosted by a browser, then the communictation for multiuser features shall be done via WebRTC and AJAX.

Unfortunately, I cannot find the mail any more in the archives. Could someone point me to that mail? Or could you confirm that remembrance?

Thanks,
Christoph

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