[x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 28 July 2022: X3D4 Scene Access Interface (SAI) review
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Sat Aug 6 18:16:32 PDT 2022
Thanks, Don. It’s good to hear that you support these export methods in
abstract SAI standards and/or SAI-related standards.
Now we should possibly discuss loader methods if not URLs in SAI. That
is, the Browser.create… methods that convert VRML, URL, and XML
(encodings) to objects, nodes or documents. I don’t believe we need to
discuss X3D architecture in this discussion, but… Is it our intention to
load glTF assets through SAI, if only through DOM manipulation of Inline?
I am perfectly comfortable loading JSON through Inlines, but there should
also be a way to load JSON as a String in SAI, possibly using Browser
.createX3DFromString().
Mainly, I’m mostly concerned about support for X3DLoaderDOM.java interfaces
in SAI, for at least one object model (including bindings) or encoding.
I do need to do some reading.
Thanks!
John
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 7:20 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Hi John, thanks for review.
>
>
>
> Expect to see little or no “invention” of X3D graphics in the SAI
> specifications, as descriptions and recent X3D Graphics Specification
> Relationships diagram mosaic shows, the SAI is a set of application
> programming interfaces for X3D.
>
>
>
> I think you are correct to flag the following two important utility
> methods as essential.
>
>
>
> We expect to first confirm correct definition of such things during
> 19775-2 SAI abstract-specification review. Later we will confirm
> consistent definition in each of the corresponding SAI-related
> specifications for ECMAscript, Java, Python, C, C++, C#.
>
>
> Step by inexorable step…
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2022 3:27 AM
> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>; X3D Graphics
> public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 28 July 2022: X3D4 Scene
> Access Interface (SAI) review
>
>
>
> Indeed, they are there at least in the JavaScript SAI specification (see
> below). Not in the Java SAI specification that I can see. Others may have
> better eyes.
>
> String
>
> toVRMLString()
>
> Returns the X3D Classic VRML-encoded string that, if parsed as the value
> of an SFNode field, produce this node. If the browser is unable to
> reproduce this node, the name of the node followed by the open brace and
> close brace shall be returned. Additional information may be included as
> one or more Classic VRML comment strings.
>
> String
>
> toXMLString()
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 5:15 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now that I reread this a bit, the Jupyter notebook stuff isn't exactly a
> live SAI, AFAIK, takes an XML document out of one, non-interactive "SAI"
> and puts it in an interactive scene.
>
>
>
> While x3d.py and X3DJSAIL show this well, there should be some discussion
> whether we want these "document dumps" in a final SAI (are they already
> there?).
>
>
>
> I'll try to do some reading on my desktop now.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 3:17 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’m not saying this too well. I mean producing XML, JSON or VRML, to use
> with browsers.
>
>
>
> I believe we have some Jupyter notebooks showing this.
>
>
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 3:01 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think there’s a potential 3rd use case for SAI, and that’s for creating
> views of the model hierarchy, for use with X3DOM and X_ITE.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 12:19 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> There was a meeting of X3D Working Group on Friday 29 July 2022 at 09-10
> pacific. Connection information and topics follow.
>
>
>
> Attendees: Anita Havele, Doug Sanden, Don Brutzman. Prior review and
> inputs: Dick Puk. Thanks!
>
>
>
> -
> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YB3968hxquCUV9JdrBIWfNbWUk7d1dnhpuyVs0d2fuY%3D&reserved=0>
> - https://zoom.us/j/148206572
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZmSEJ6OFzVC4hPYQ0YFqw6%2BT2Oj3Lakc8oyjIizY59o%3D&reserved=0>
> Password 483805
> - https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>
>
>
> 1. Doug Sanden described a lot of work he has going on with FreeWrl
> code review, upgrading for X3D4. Expect to hear more on the mailing list
> as he progresses.
>
>
>
> - http://freewrl.sourceforge.net
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffreewrl.sourceforge.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=L2KHO09hUTeVk7ZYiCb%2B4nHsXNI6emUA8LT5Uo%2Fa%2FQs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> 1. *Web3D 2022* Confirmation (2-4 November 2022, Paris) Call for
> Papers – real soon now!
>
>
>
> - https://web3d.siggraph.org
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dZEU8NxG8Hb4vYUiO2NxLMMwJjJc9yefYTj9HuMUSH8%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> The* 27th International Conference on 3D Web Technology*, sponsored by ACM
> SIGGRAPH
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ewm0Ncbkfcq%2FHSJSDcca8COBDQ2SW%2Bc7PmhXISWhibE%3D&reserved=0> in cooperation with
> the Web3D Consortium <https://www.web3d.org/>, is hosted by Telecom
> SudParis
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telecom-sudparis.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mX6btiTbkpb0EGWDEW6sfxoDHRHWe8cKBHWZWtiaQNI%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
>
>
> Important dates:
>
>
>
> - https://web3d.siggraph.org/important-dates
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fimportant-dates&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cvFUaRALdpaDQ5SlSmQnGhWCy8pVKrA0%2Bqyy%2F7JmKCc%3D&reserved=0>
> - *Saturday 30 July*: Papers and Interactive Posters
> - *Monday August 29: *Tutorials, Industrial Use Cases, Workshops,
> Competition.
>
>
>
> Authors are invited to submit original work presenting fundamental
> research, practice and experiments, or novel applications, in all areas of
> 3D graphics on the web and related topics therein.
>
>
>
> 1. SIGGRAPH activities: multiple big events this week!
>
>
>
> 1. *Web3D Ecosystem and the Metaverse - SIGGRAPH 2022 BOF*
>
>
> https://www.web3d.org/news-story/web3d-ecosystem-and-metaverse-siggraph-2022-bof
>
> https://s2022.siggraph.org/presentation/?id=bof_136&sess=sess335
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2022.siggraph.org%2Fpresentation%2F%3Fid%3Dbof_136%26sess%3Dsess335&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WiD0nFw6ORVWapHWFnjkOm7KB7wcVHIGzFI2E4oALCc%3D&reserved=0>
>
> https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-bof-siggraph-2022
>
> https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/1553065575512911876
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FWeb3DConsortium%2Fstatus%2F1553065575512911876&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jQl6vcpjHy1V%2F0FLy42nDkYsEHsvovPTcdRZTbRxMxc%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Join the Web3D Consortium for a discussion on how our technology
> contributes to the Metaverse. From Interactive Real-Time 3D, to Mixed
> Reality and Humanoid Animation (HAnim), everything we do in 3D is
> significant to an open Metaverse. See how our members are scaling expertise
> in 3D, Modeling and Simulation, Geospatial, Augmented Reality, and Web
> Audio towards an open, interoperable Metaverse. Our extensible 3D
> presentation layer brings 3D content from different domains from across the
> WWW into rich, interactive 3D worlds.
>
>
>
> 1. *ACM SIGGRAPH Cartographic Visualization (Carto) Birds of a Feather*
>
> https://s2022.siggraph.org/presentation/?id=bof_101&sess=sess155
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2022.siggraph.org%2Fpresentation%2F%3Fid%3Dbof_101%26sess%3Dsess155&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=G1GlfzTBdq3vlFTY1I%2BXfeto5ylh4JpHViVGDTB2ZHk%3D&reserved=0>
>
> The ACM SIGGRAPH Cartographic Visualization (Carto) session explores how
> viewpoints and techniques from the computer graphics community can be
> effectively applied to cartographic and spatial data sets. Speakers
> demonstrate their latest tools and application efforts.
>
>
>
> 1. *Immersive Visualization for Research, Science and Art*
>
> https://s2022.siggraph.org/presentation/?id=bof_128&sess=sess328
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2022.siggraph.org%2Fpresentation%2F%3Fid%3Dbof_128%26sess%3Dsess328&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cda4f2eea0c7648efaad208da72160a1c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637947736251495490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tbNrs6efA7Ste0HnzXEXwtbMjhNf2nLjLnhGwNSS0YU%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Traditionally, this session is on immersive visualization systems for
> science and research, scientific visualization information visualization,
> art and science. Invited speakers and panel discuss newest initiatives and
> developments in visualization space. Presentations included Nicholas Polys
> on durability of X3D.
>
> Tomasz Bednarz, NVIDIA and William Sherman, NIST
>
>
>
> 1. *Annual ISO/IEC JTC-1 SC24 meeting – progress report*.
>
>
>
> Under discussion, for all hours of day/night interspersed over a 4-week
> period, are many topics. X3D4, Smart Cities, VR/AR/MAR/XR,
> virtual/augmented reality health and safety, more. Next week will see
> finalization of committee conclusions and recommendations.
>
>
>
> 1. X3D4 Scene Access Interface (SAI) Review
>
>
>
> Our “specification mosaic” diagram shows how all the many X3D-related
> specifications fit together.
>
>
>
> - X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.png
>
>
>
> With the X3D4 Draft International Standard (DIS) complete and undergoing
> national-body balloting by ISO/IEC, it is time to turn our sights on X3D4
> SAI. This document forms the abstract-API reference and common basis for
> numerous other X3D APIs including EcmaScript (JavaScript), Java, Python, C,
> C#, C++.
>
>
>
> - Information technology — Computer graphics, image processing and
> environmental data representation — Extensible 3D (X3D) —
> - Part 2: Scene access interface (SAI) ISO/IEC 19775-2:2015
> - https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-2/V3.3
> - X3D is a file format and related access services for describing
> interactive 3D objects and worlds. X3D is designed to be used on the
> Internet, intranets, and local client systems. X3D is also intended to be a
> universal interchange format for integrated 3D graphics and multimedia. X3D
> may be used in a variety of application areas such as engineering and
> scientific visualization, multimedia presentations, entertainment and
> educational titles, web pages, and shared virtual worlds.
> - This part of ISO/IEC 19775 defines the scene access interface that
> can be used to interact with X3D worlds both from within the worlds or from
> external programs.
>
>
>
> Based on review/revision of X3D SAI 3.3 in 2015, led by Dick Puk and
> myself for Web3D and ISO, this document is pretty mature. I have performed
> a careful document review, available at
>
>
>
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSaiReviewCommentsJuly2022.reduced.pdf
> (14MB)
>
>
>
> Under consideration, of general interest for future discussion: can we
> help distinguish between different primary use cases, namely
>
> 1. Browser services (the current primary emphasis),
> 2. Script node source code (sorta implicit), and
> 3. Simple subset API used for model creation and authoring, no live
> browser interactions needed.
>
>
>
> If we get clearer about those three use cases, it may help all of our X3D
> SAI APIs be clearer and more useful.
>
>
>
> Request all interested parties look over this comments review. Next
> go-forward step will be putting X3D4 SAI into Github version control for
> Web3D Consortium members.
>
>
> Thanks for all input and participation.
>
>
>
> Have fun with finishing Web3D 2022 papers/posters, watching SIGGRAPH
> videos, and (deep breath) X3D4 SAI review! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
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