[x3d-public] Fw: Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams

John Carlson yottzumm at gmail.com
Tue Sep 20 12:55:24 PDT 2022 

Indeed,  last i heard,  WASM does not have String or DOM types.  Anyone
have more recent information?

John

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Valentin <
christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:

> Hi Doug, Hi Don, Hi All,
>
> Thank you very much for your input.
>
> I am herewith sending the "release candidate 2" of version 0.7 of the "*Suggestion
> of a Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software for Kind Consideration by the
> Community/Consortium*".
>
> During a non-public discussion I received following additional comments
> that have not been considered yet:
>
> [...] for the MetaVerse, there will need to be aspects of multiuser
> included.  I’m not sure if these are DIS servers or what, and there might
> need to be security for DIS connections.
> For the accessible Metaverse,  perhaps tactile or (ASCII) Braille
> interface might be used.[...]
>
>   Here it is:
> I am aware that some efforts will be necessary to define the meaning of
> "..." in the string "Web APIs (WebGL, DOM, ...)" and the meaning of
> "......" in the string "Operating System and DirectX, OpenGL, ......".
>
> One comment abou WebAssembly (WASM): at the link
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAssembly/Concepts
> <https://deref-gmx.net/mail/client/gyCoOuAmPmc/dereferrer/?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fdeveloper.mozilla.org%2Fen-US%2Fdocs%2FWebAssembly%2FConcepts>,
> I found following sentence:   [...]WebAssembly is a different language from
> JavaScript, but it is not intended as a replacement. Instead, it is
> designed to complement and work alongside JavaScript, allowing web
> developers to take advantage of both languages' strong points[...]
>
> Kr,
> CP/V
>
>
> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 18. September 2022 um 17:26 Uhr
> *Von:* "GPU Group" <gpugroup at gmail.com>
> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
> *Cc:* x3d-public at web3d.org, "Don Brutzman" <brutzman at nps.edu>, "Mehdin
> Masinovic" <mehdin.masinovic2 at gmail.com>, "Kevin" <klw71 at yahoo.com>,
> "Markus Sonntag" <markus.sonntag at tmo.at>
> *Betreff:* Re: Fw: [x3d-public] Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and
> Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF
> comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
> That looks close.
> Should the "Web APIs" be below "HTML/CSS/javascript"?
> 2 stacks in the W3C Browser box:
> a) conventional web app
> HTML/CSS/Javascript
> Web APIs / webgl
> W3C browser
> b) WebAssembly
> WebAssembly / WASM
> Web APIs / webgl
> W3C browser
>
> The W3C browser delegates webgl to host operating system native
> method graphics APIs, such as DirectX on windows via ANGLE PROJECT interop
> layer.
> WebAssembly / WASM also runs over the web apis, something that looks like
> a desktop function is converted to a Web API / webgl call via interop layer.
> -Doug
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 8:56 AM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sorry, one (hopefully) last increment: v0.6
>>
>> Necessary corrections:
>> - Browser plugins are displayed correctly, now (imho)
>> - red: application software
>> - green: software with standardized or "well-known" APIs
>> - blue: APIs
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 18. September 2022 um 05:14 Uhr
>> *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>> *An:* "Doug Sanden" <gpugroup at gmail.com>, x3d-public at web3d.org, "Don
>> Brutzman" <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc:* "Mehdin Masinovic" <mehdin.masinovic2 at gmail.com>, "Kevin" <
>> klw71 at yahoo.com>, "Markus Sonntag" <markus.sonntag at tmo.at>
>> *Betreff:* Fw: [x3d-public] Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software
>> - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D
>> Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>> The box should be green, shouldn't it?
>>
>> -----------------------
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> I inserted another light blue box, at the left side, in order to tackle
>> your comments.
>>
>> I called the box "Native Runtime Environment" (NRE), so I think I covered
>> all the cases of JRE, Browser Plugins and WebKit/WASM, didn't I?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 17:45 Uhr
>> *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>> *An:* x3d-public at web3d.org, "Doug Sanden" <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* "Mehdin Masinovic" <mehdin.masinovic2 at gmail.com>, "Kevin" <
>> klw71 at yahoo.com>, "Markus Sonntag" <markus.sonntag at tmo.at>
>> *Betreff:* [x3d-public] Fw: Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software
>> - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D
>> Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>> Anyway, two last small improvements, before I let it go :-)
>>
>>
>> Have a nice week
>> Yours Christoph
>>
>>
>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 16:39 Uhr
>> *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>> *An:* "Doug Sanden" <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* x3d-public at web3d.org
>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] Fw: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software
>> - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D
>> Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> Unfortunately, I am not aware of those technologies (Chromium, Electron,
>> Webkit / WASM).
>> Do you think, the picture could be easily adapted to introduce them
>> (without naming concrete products/projects)?
>> Would it be a big problem, if I asked you to do that update? I sent the
>> .odg with the e-mail. You are free to use and modify it according to your
>> will (let's say according to GPL license).
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> Am 17.09.22, 15:26 schrieb GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> "Machine Based" could be "Native" or "Native Application"?
>>> Stacks not shown:
>>> - Chromium native plugin (desktop DX,OGL)
>>> - Electron (Chromium+Node.js html+css: chromium webgl)
>>> - Webkit / WASM (web browser hosted native code: webgl)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 7:10 AM Christoph Valentin <
>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Trying a beautification..............still just a suggestion / draft /
>>>> "brain fart".............
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Christoph
>>>>
>>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 14:14 Uhr
>>>> *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>> *An:* x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>> *Cc:* "Kevin" <klw71 at yahoo.com>, "Mehdin Masinovic" <
>>>> mehdin.masinovic2 at gmail.com>, "Markus Sonntag" <markus.sonntag at tmo.at>
>>>> *Betreff:* [x3d-public] Fw:   Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software
>>>> - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D
>>>> Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>>>> Increment v0.2......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best
>>>> Christoph
>>>>
>>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 13:41 Uhr
>>>> *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>> *An:* x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>> *Cc:* "Kevin" <klw71 at yahoo.com>, "Mehdin Masinovic" <
>>>> mehdin.masinovic2 at gmail.com>, "Markus Sonntag" <markus.sonntag at tmo.at>
>>>> *Betreff:* [x3d-public] Fw:  Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software
>>>> - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D
>>>> Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>>>> Instant correction:
>>>>
>>>> Should replace "Hardware" by "Machine" (can be a virtual machine)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>> gesendet.
>>>> Am 17.09.22, 11:21 schrieb Christoph Valentin <
>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John, Hi Don,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for my late reaction.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>
>>>>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. September 2022 um 18:05 Uhr
>>>>> *Von:* "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>> *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>>>>> *Cc:* "X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)" <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>, "Don Brutzman" <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues,
>>>>> X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
>>>>> Doug Sanden suggested we include Web Assembly (WASM).  Presumably it
>>>>> would be compiling an X3D Browser.  I am not sure if we are going to
>>>>> compile X3D applications to WASM, but it's a nice thought!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 3:00 PM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry for my "brain farts", but one silly idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If X3D is ONE standard (for WebGL, OpenGL and DirectX)
>>>>>> and if X3D is backwards compatible with VRML worlds,
>>>>>> and if some future development (which need not carry the name "X3D")
>>>>>> will be backwards compatible with X3D,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> then,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> why shouldn't we draw another contiguous block below the "X3D
>>>>>> Application" and call this block
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Web3D Browser (Web Based, OpenGL based, DirectX based, ......)".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kr,
>>>>>> CP
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>>>> gesendet.
>>>>>> Am 15.09.22, 21:22 schrieb Christoph Valentin <
>>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) You mean?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -. HTML instead of HTML Browser
>>>>>>> - concrete X3D engines instead of "X3D Engine" (why are X_ITE and
>>>>>>> X3DOM listed, standalone X3D engines are not listed by name?).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) One question to all:
>>>>>>> The "X3D Application" (I would rather call it "Web3D Application")
>>>>>>> is a contiguous block above "both worlds".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we all on the same page, what this means? Not the provider of
>>>>>>> the application, but the user of the application selects which X3D browser
>>>>>>> to use?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kr,
>>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>>>>> gesendet.
>>>>>>> Am 15.09.22, 21:09 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More likely, a combined term would be API?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 2:04 PM Christoph Valentin <
>>>>>>>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One small remark about x3d web stack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The picture uses two kinds of blocks
>>>>>>>>> 1. Software entities (Browser, Engine, OS, ...)
>>>>>>>>> 2. Standards (WebGL, OpenGL, ...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Couldn't we write software entities instead of standards (e.g.
>>>>>>>>> WebGL is implemented by JavaScript engines)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kr
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>>>>>>>>> gesendet.
>>>>>>>>> Am 15.09.22, 20:49 schrieb "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <
>>>>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [corrected agenda follows, apologies for prior runaway email]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There will be a meeting of X3D Working Group on Friday 29 July
>>>>>>>>>> 2022 at 09-10 pacific.  Connection information and topics follow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>>    https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
>>>>>>>>>>    - https://zoom.us/j/148206572  Password 483805
>>>>>>>>>>    - https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Agenda review
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Good progress in Design Printing Scanning call led to two
>>>>>>>>>>    new Mantis issues for possible comment:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Mantis 1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to
>>>>>>>>>>    recommended image formats for ImageTexture
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Mantis 1401: aligning X3D4 LineProperties with Quality
>>>>>>>>>>    Information Framework (QIF) specification
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Any further improvements to X3D-glTF comparison?
>>>>>>>>>>    Excellent progress so far, this is a valuable review.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    - Features Comparison X3D 4.0 and glTF 2.0
>>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>>    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x0DnRtg33AuOA_aSl70L41Gq5m6TFt4t
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Reviewing Web3D Roadmap, Anita and Communications Team
>>>>>>>>>>    made some good edits today.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>>    https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jwY0JeYyvA8aW-e-Q06GINQkJS7b7S8jgjpJZGDjl0I/edit#slide=id.p3
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    1. Considering further refactoring of X3D Web Stack diagrams
>>>>>>>>>>    (three variations attached)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Onward we go…
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>>>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>>>>>>>>>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public
>>>>>>>>>> mailing list x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing
>>>>> list x3d-public at web3d.org
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>>>>
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