[x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: comment reviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Tue Jan 24 13:19:20 PST 2023
I am merely talking of constructing scenes using a JSON source. Instead
converting to DOM, which may not be available, I would convert to an SAI
scenegraph. That is l, create an X3DJSON loader that supports scene
creation with SAI, if not DOM.
John
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:04 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
>
> - I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers with
> SAI and no DOM
>
>
>
> Please let me help you figure this out.
>
> As shown by dedicated json forms like gltfs and glblobs and other uses of
> encoding syntax that can store data with content that depends upon
> hierarchy, names, and data types and structures, ordinary json can provide
> the author with a way to encode custom data in some custom data structure
> for purpose of producing custom content delivered in a custom form. In
> other words, when x3d browsers and tools support import and export of json,
> then authors can do special stuff to aid them in the complex job of
> authoring. For instance the current gltf was designed by people that
> understand generation and maintenance of a complex scene graph and so if
> x3d supports gltf json then x3d author can use those data structures
> relatively easily in an environment that can actually validate the scene
> content prior to execution. So, that is where ordinary json fits in with
> x3d. Just another general purpose tool very useful for handling various
> sorts of data involved in authoring and delivering realtime interactive 3D
> viz using WWW.
>
> So, if I choose to define sets of data that I want to use and call by some
> name and it fits a json standard form, then I ought to be able to do so
> freely. For example, If I have an HAnim skin field, I want to be able to
> store that in my json file then the user code gets lots more simple because
> in place of the list of points, I just have a reference to the json file.
> However, I do not wish to encode an entire scene graph using json. So, for
> general validation of json content, I think two levels: First if the author
> has not provided a schema then it is only necessary to check for valid data
> json structures. Second, if the author provides a schema then look at
> names, data structures, and types.
>
> And, json files can include both authortime and runtime stuffs, at more or
> less the author’s choice. So the important item is not to limit the
> long-term potential of a feature like json for some relatively simple stuff
> while not unnecessarily promoting it use as a specialized syntax to
> describe and validate the entire scene graph.
>
> Thanks, and Best,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 24, 2023 12:36 AM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>; GPU Group
> <gpugroup at gmail.com>; Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>; Michalis
> Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com>; Myeong Won Lee
> <myeongwonlee at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: comment
> reviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications
>
>
>
> Don, I’m hoping you can add “JSON for SAI—X3DJSONLS.*” to the schedule for
> the 27th. I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers
> with SAI and no DOM. In particular, optional scene validation with SAI
> generated from X3DUOM would be a great addition if not already provided
> when JSON is loaded into the scene with SAI. One thing i faced with C++
> was I wasn’t aware of any SAI implementations; is now a good time to ask?
> I was told to make a standalone app.
>
>
>
> I had not considered replacing the JavaScript “document” and associated
> DOM methods with SAI methods in X3DJSONLD.* before. I could use some help
> with that, and start building X3DJSONLS.* for browsers without DOM (Xj3D?)
>
>
>
> I’m hoping scene validation will be supported in all SAI standards. I
> realize some “x3d browsers” do not support reasonable SAI standard
> interfaces—that’s what X3DJSONLD is for. For those without DOM, either DOM
> can be added, or X3DJSONLS can be used.
>
>
>
> Maybe I’ll get a donkey head to wear to meetings. ;) I’m imagining the
> one from the “Lambchop” show would be ideal.
>
>
>
> I’m hoping that SAI provides at a minimum, createNode, addChild and
> setAttribute or the equivalent (array indexing instead of addChild). I’m
> also recalling that JavaScript can use [] instead of setAttribute. I guess
> i may only need the createNode, route interfaces and proto creation in
> JavaScript SAI. We can keep the property name prefixes in JSON for
> JavaScript mentioned in another message, i was confused looking at an app
> which used “.” for property access. Perhaps a hash table, proxy, or
> associative array would be good for other languages.
>
>
>
> I do still think that X3DJSONLD offers some benefits for loading “HTML
> JSON” and “SVG JSON”. Indeed, I need to expand the XML namespaces i
> support on my web app. X3DJSONLD was never really considered an X3D only
> app, instead, I wanted to provide support for a wide variety of JSON to DOM
> conversions.
>
>
>
> So now I’ll start pursuing something more crafted for SAI.
>
>
>
> I bet you got kind of surprised when i ported X3JSONLD.java to X3DJSAIL.
> Apologies!
>
>
>
> A “green light,” “yellow light” or “red light” would be great. I’ll
> probably need help designing internal and external interface names.
>
>
>
> I have posted X3DJSONLD.java which can be copied to X3DJSONLS.java on the
> sourceforge.net x3d project as a starting point for the JSON to SAI
> project to give you optimal delivery options. x3djsonld.py isn’t done yet,
> and already relies heavily on x3d.py (no DOM).
>
>
>
> Here is code:
>
>
>
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/java/src/net/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD.java
>
>
>
> We can discuss whether X3DJSONLS or X3DJSONLD should be delivered in
> X3DJSAIL or not. Java supports DOM natively, and X3DJSAIL offers both DOM
> and SAI. Obviously we have to wash and repeat for each language.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:25 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> We meet at our regular time tomorrow, 0900-1000 pacific Friday 20 JAN.
>
>
>
> First we will briefly review updates to the following important status
> resource, discussing next steps.
>
> - *Updated.* X3D Node Inventory Comparison
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx>
> (.pdf
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf>)
> shows node-by-node implementation coverage of the
> X3D Abstract Specification: validation using X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and
> X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node sets; plus selected
> open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE, view3dscene (Castle
> Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx
> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
>
>
>
> Our primary goal is to review all comments on the C, C++, C# draft
> specifications and ensure they are captured appropriately in the Web3D
> Consortium Mantis Issue Tracker. Results will be submitted to ISO.
>
>
>
> All participation is welcome. Last week’s minutes attached for
> convenience. Have fun with X3D! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
> *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2023 10:40 AM
> *To:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) x3d-public at web3d.org
> *Cc:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
> *Subject:* X3D Working Group minutes 13 JAN 2023: refined goals, ISO
> specification updates, X3D4 implementation upgrade guidelines?
>
>
>
> Happy Friday 13th everyone! (bwa ha ha…)
>
>
>
> Today we held our regular weekly meeting of X3D Working Group, Friday 13
> January 2023 at 09-10 pacific. Connection information and topics follow.
>
>
>
> -
> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
> - https://zoom.us/j/148206572 Password 483805
> - https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>
>
>
> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Doug Sanden, Don
> Brutzman.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *Goal statement review*. Our primary activities for X3D Working
> Group in 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment. Refined:
>
>
>
> a. Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the
> many tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>
> b. Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>
>
>
> The dozen corresponding standards to receive these updates are illustrated
> as follows:
>
>
>
> - X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
> -
> https://web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.png
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *Milestone: X3D4 Architecture Finalization*.
>
>
>
> Last Tuesday we held a totally successful ISO Editors meeting for X3D4
> Architecture Draft International Specification (DIS). ISO review and
> approval deliberations continue.
>
>
>
> Today we reviewed progress, changes and next steps following. Almost
> finally, finally done locking in all details…
>
>
>
> - X3D4: Extensible 3D (X3D) Part 1: Architecture and base components,
> ISO/IEC 19775-1:2022
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/Architecture.html
>
>
>
> - Mantis Issue Tracker
> - https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
>
>
>
> Mantis issues are being updated to track all of the agreed-upon ISO
> changes correctly.
>
>
>
> Given the formally approved list of X3D4 Architecture changes, we can
> finally proceed with document editing. Next step is to apply CSS-markup
> highlighted changes to the current DIS source for group review.
>
>
>
> Proposed github location for that draft:
>
>
>
> - Web3D Consortium GitHub Archive
> - https://github.com/Web3dConsortium
> -
> https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19775/ISO-IEC19775-1/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.0/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS
> - ISO-IEC19775-1v4-ProposedIS will be new directory location, eventual
> rename to “IS” once accepted by ISO
>
>
>
> X3D schema, DTD, X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL updates in progress, so far so good.
> Have applied most validation-related changes. Initial
> recapitalization/dehyphenization of Web Audio-related enumerations to
> follow.
>
>
>
> Forward thinkers can rest assured that no good ideas regarding X3D
> evolution that didn’t “make the final ISO cut” are getting lost. All
> future possibilities will continue to be tracked in Mantis and designated
> as future X3D 4.1.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *Web3D Review of C, C++, C# draft standards for X3D 3.3.*
>
>
>
> Deadline is imminent, we intend to review all comments next week. Based
> on that review, X3D Working Group will make a recommendation to Web3D Board
> of Directors regarding Consortium and community inputs on specification
> readiness.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *Preparing for Outreach*.
>
>
>
> We discussed how to communicate the soon-to-happen approval of X3D 4.0 by
> ISO, including possible testimonials by members, implementers, authors,
> users, Standards Development Organization (SDO) partners, et al.
>
>
>
> *All testimonial statements are welcome.* Web3D Consortium Executive
> Director Anita Havele to participate.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *X3D Node Inventory Comparison*.
>
>
>
> We took another look at this spreadsheet, let’s prepare to regularly
> update. Multiple other assets can also be used by implementers to support
> upgrading to X3D4.
>
>
>
> - X3D Specifications: Schema and DOCTYPE Validation
> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications
> - These assets are commonly used for XML validation of X3D scenes, and
> in-depth documentation is also provided here.
>
>
>
> - X3D Node Inventory Comparison (.pdf) shows node-by-node
> implementation coverage of the X3D Abstract Specification: validation using
> X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node
> sets; plus selected open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE,
> view3dscene (Castle Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xslx
> (master in version control)
> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
> - This will be updated to X3D 4.0 latest, with changes highlighted in
> yellow
>
>
>
> - X3D Tooltips 4.0 also highlights all changes in yellow
> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html
> - For example, Anchor tooltips:
> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#Anchor
>
>
>
> - The X3D4 Architecture specification itself also reveals specific
> changes to nodes and fields, from versions 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 and 4.0:
> - X3D4 Architecture, Annex Z, Version Content
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/versionContent.html
> - For example, looking at Anchor node, you can see in rightmost column
> that v4.0 adds load, bboxDisplay, autoRefreshTimeLimit etc.
>
>
>
> Suggested: should we create an X3D4 Migration Guide to help implementers?
> Seems like an excellent idea, also “rings true” with our initial goal
> statements today.
>
>
>
> *Volunteers please? *Creating some form of X3D4 Migration Guide
> checklist to assist implementers might be quite useful. Also an excellent
> professional opportunity for experts and consultants to demonstrate (and
> upgrade) their expertise.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. *All other business*.
>
>
>
> Good discussions on download statistics (X3D-Edit, FreeWrl) and a variety
> of other topics... we’re having fun now!
>
>
>
> As ever, many thanks for the work of many contributors. Deep breath… wow.
>
>
>
> No Web3D member-only information is included in these minutes… but please
> do note: several valuable items documented here have Web3D member-only
> access.
>
>
>
> Consortium membership has value! *Please consider joining*.
>
>
>
> - Join the Web3D Consortium
> - https://www.web3d.org/join
>
>
>
> Have fun with X3D4! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
>
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