[x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: comment reviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed Jan 25 01:46:04 PST 2023
Actually x3djsonld.py is already well on the way to doing this. I just
don’t know if methods like createNode are available and maybe preferred.
(Of course i realize there are constructors which can be used)
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 3:19 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am merely talking of constructing scenes using a JSON source. Instead
> converting to DOM, which may not be available, I would convert to an SAI
> scenegraph. That is l, create an X3DJSON loader that supports scene
> creation with SAI, if not DOM.
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:04 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> - I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers with
>> SAI and no DOM
>>
>>
>>
>> Please let me help you figure this out.
>>
>> As shown by dedicated json forms like gltfs and glblobs and other uses of
>> encoding syntax that can store data with content that depends upon
>> hierarchy, names, and data types and structures, ordinary json can provide
>> the author with a way to encode custom data in some custom data structure
>> for purpose of producing custom content delivered in a custom form. In
>> other words, when x3d browsers and tools support import and export of json,
>> then authors can do special stuff to aid them in the complex job of
>> authoring. For instance the current gltf was designed by people that
>> understand generation and maintenance of a complex scene graph and so if
>> x3d supports gltf json then x3d author can use those data structures
>> relatively easily in an environment that can actually validate the scene
>> content prior to execution. So, that is where ordinary json fits in with
>> x3d. Just another general purpose tool very useful for handling various
>> sorts of data involved in authoring and delivering realtime interactive 3D
>> viz using WWW.
>>
>> So, if I choose to define sets of data that I want to use and call by
>> some name and it fits a json standard form, then I ought to be able to do
>> so freely. For example, If I have an HAnim skin field, I want to be able to
>> store that in my json file then the user code gets lots more simple because
>> in place of the list of points, I just have a reference to the json file.
>> However, I do not wish to encode an entire scene graph using json. So, for
>> general validation of json content, I think two levels: First if the author
>> has not provided a schema then it is only necessary to check for valid data
>> json structures. Second, if the author provides a schema then look at
>> names, data structures, and types.
>>
>> And, json files can include both authortime and runtime stuffs, at more
>> or less the author’s choice. So the important item is not to limit the
>> long-term potential of a feature like json for some relatively simple stuff
>> while not unnecessarily promoting it use as a specialized syntax to
>> describe and validate the entire scene graph.
>>
>> Thanks, and Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 24, 2023 12:36 AM
>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>; GPU Group
>> <gpugroup at gmail.com>; Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>; Michalis
>> Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com>; Myeong Won Lee
>> <myeongwonlee at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023:
>> comment reviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications
>>
>>
>>
>> Don, I’m hoping you can add “JSON for SAI—X3DJSONLS.*” to the schedule
>> for the 27th. I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers
>> with SAI and no DOM. In particular, optional scene validation with SAI
>> generated from X3DUOM would be a great addition if not already provided
>> when JSON is loaded into the scene with SAI. One thing i faced with C++
>> was I wasn’t aware of any SAI implementations; is now a good time to ask?
>> I was told to make a standalone app.
>>
>>
>>
>> I had not considered replacing the JavaScript “document” and associated
>> DOM methods with SAI methods in X3DJSONLD.* before. I could use some help
>> with that, and start building X3DJSONLS.* for browsers without DOM (Xj3D?)
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m hoping scene validation will be supported in all SAI standards. I
>> realize some “x3d browsers” do not support reasonable SAI standard
>> interfaces—that’s what X3DJSONLD is for. For those without DOM, either DOM
>> can be added, or X3DJSONLS can be used.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe I’ll get a donkey head to wear to meetings. ;) I’m imagining the
>> one from the “Lambchop” show would be ideal.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m hoping that SAI provides at a minimum, createNode, addChild and
>> setAttribute or the equivalent (array indexing instead of addChild). I’m
>> also recalling that JavaScript can use [] instead of setAttribute. I guess
>> i may only need the createNode, route interfaces and proto creation in
>> JavaScript SAI. We can keep the property name prefixes in JSON for
>> JavaScript mentioned in another message, i was confused looking at an app
>> which used “.” for property access. Perhaps a hash table, proxy, or
>> associative array would be good for other languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do still think that X3DJSONLD offers some benefits for loading “HTML
>> JSON” and “SVG JSON”. Indeed, I need to expand the XML namespaces i
>> support on my web app. X3DJSONLD was never really considered an X3D only
>> app, instead, I wanted to provide support for a wide variety of JSON to DOM
>> conversions.
>>
>>
>>
>> So now I’ll start pursuing something more crafted for SAI.
>>
>>
>>
>> I bet you got kind of surprised when i ported X3JSONLD.java to X3DJSAIL.
>> Apologies!
>>
>>
>>
>> A “green light,” “yellow light” or “red light” would be great. I’ll
>> probably need help designing internal and external interface names.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have posted X3DJSONLD.java which can be copied to X3DJSONLS.java on the
>> sourceforge.net x3d project as a starting point for the JSON to SAI
>> project to give you optimal delivery options. x3djsonld.py isn’t done yet,
>> and already relies heavily on x3d.py (no DOM).
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is code:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/java/src/net/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD.java
>>
>>
>>
>> We can discuss whether X3DJSONLS or X3DJSONLD should be delivered in
>> X3DJSAIL or not. Java supports DOM natively, and X3DJSAIL offers both DOM
>> and SAI. Obviously we have to wash and repeat for each language.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:25 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>> We meet at our regular time tomorrow, 0900-1000 pacific Friday 20 JAN.
>>
>>
>>
>> First we will briefly review updates to the following important status
>> resource, discussing next steps.
>>
>> - *Updated.* X3D Node Inventory Comparison
>> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx>
>> (.pdf
>> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf>)
>> shows node-by-node implementation coverage of the
>> X3D Abstract Specification: validation using X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and
>> X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node sets; plus selected
>> open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE, view3dscene (Castle
>> Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
>> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx
>> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Our primary goal is to review all comments on the C, C++, C# draft
>> specifications and ensure they are captured appropriately in the Web3D
>> Consortium Mantis Issue Tracker. Results will be submitted to ISO.
>>
>>
>>
>> All participation is welcome. Last week’s minutes attached for
>> convenience. Have fun with X3D! 8)
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2023 10:40 AM
>> *To:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) x3d-public at web3d.org
>> *Cc:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
>> *Subject:* X3D Working Group minutes 13 JAN 2023: refined goals, ISO
>> specification updates, X3D4 implementation upgrade guidelines?
>>
>>
>>
>> Happy Friday 13th everyone! (bwa ha ha…)
>>
>>
>>
>> Today we held our regular weekly meeting of X3D Working Group, Friday 13
>> January 2023 at 09-10 pacific. Connection information and topics follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
>> - https://zoom.us/j/148206572 Password 483805
>> - https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>>
>>
>>
>> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Doug Sanden, Don
>> Brutzman.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *Goal statement review*. Our primary activities for X3D Working
>> Group in 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment. Refined:
>>
>>
>>
>> a. Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the
>> many tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>>
>> b. Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
>> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>>
>>
>>
>> The dozen corresponding standards to receive these updates are
>> illustrated as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
>> -
>> https://web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.png
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *Milestone: X3D4 Architecture Finalization*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Last Tuesday we held a totally successful ISO Editors meeting for X3D4
>> Architecture Draft International Specification (DIS). ISO review and
>> approval deliberations continue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Today we reviewed progress, changes and next steps following. Almost
>> finally, finally done locking in all details…
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D4: Extensible 3D (X3D) Part 1: Architecture and base components,
>> ISO/IEC 19775-1:2022
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/Architecture.html
>>
>>
>>
>> - Mantis Issue Tracker
>> - https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
>>
>>
>>
>> Mantis issues are being updated to track all of the agreed-upon ISO
>> changes correctly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Given the formally approved list of X3D4 Architecture changes, we can
>> finally proceed with document editing. Next step is to apply CSS-markup
>> highlighted changes to the current DIS source for group review.
>>
>>
>>
>> Proposed github location for that draft:
>>
>>
>>
>> - Web3D Consortium GitHub Archive
>> - https://github.com/Web3dConsortium
>> -
>> https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19775/ISO-IEC19775-1/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.0/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS
>> - ISO-IEC19775-1v4-ProposedIS will be new directory location,
>> eventual rename to “IS” once accepted by ISO
>>
>>
>>
>> X3D schema, DTD, X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL updates in progress, so far so good.
>> Have applied most validation-related changes. Initial
>> recapitalization/dehyphenization of Web Audio-related enumerations to
>> follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Forward thinkers can rest assured that no good ideas regarding X3D
>> evolution that didn’t “make the final ISO cut” are getting lost. All
>> future possibilities will continue to be tracked in Mantis and designated
>> as future X3D 4.1.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *Web3D Review of C, C++, C# draft standards for X3D 3.3.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Deadline is imminent, we intend to review all comments next week. Based
>> on that review, X3D Working Group will make a recommendation to Web3D Board
>> of Directors regarding Consortium and community inputs on specification
>> readiness.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *Preparing for Outreach*.
>>
>>
>>
>> We discussed how to communicate the soon-to-happen approval of X3D 4.0 by
>> ISO, including possible testimonials by members, implementers, authors,
>> users, Standards Development Organization (SDO) partners, et al.
>>
>>
>>
>> *All testimonial statements are welcome.* Web3D Consortium Executive
>> Director Anita Havele to participate.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *X3D Node Inventory Comparison*.
>>
>>
>>
>> We took another look at this spreadsheet, let’s prepare to regularly
>> update. Multiple other assets can also be used by implementers to support
>> upgrading to X3D4.
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Specifications: Schema and DOCTYPE Validation
>> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications
>> - These assets are commonly used for XML validation of X3D scenes,
>> and in-depth documentation is also provided here.
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Node Inventory Comparison (.pdf) shows node-by-node
>> implementation coverage of the X3D Abstract Specification: validation using
>> X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node
>> sets; plus selected open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE,
>> view3dscene (Castle Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
>> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xslx
>> (master in version control)
>> - https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
>> - This will be updated to X3D 4.0 latest, with changes highlighted in
>> yellow
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Tooltips 4.0 also highlights all changes in yellow
>> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html
>> - For example, Anchor tooltips:
>> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#Anchor
>>
>>
>>
>> - The X3D4 Architecture specification itself also reveals specific
>> changes to nodes and fields, from versions 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 and 4.0:
>> - X3D4 Architecture, Annex Z, Version Content
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/versionContent.html
>> - For example, looking at Anchor node, you can see in rightmost
>> column that v4.0 adds load, bboxDisplay, autoRefreshTimeLimit etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggested: should we create an X3D4 Migration Guide to help
>> implementers? Seems like an excellent idea, also “rings true” with our
>> initial goal statements today.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Volunteers please? *Creating some form of X3D4 Migration Guide
>> checklist to assist implementers might be quite useful. Also an excellent
>> professional opportunity for experts and consultants to demonstrate (and
>> upgrade) their expertise.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. *All other business*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good discussions on download statistics (X3D-Edit, FreeWrl) and a variety
>> of other topics... we’re having fun now!
>>
>>
>>
>> As ever, many thanks for the work of many contributors. Deep breath… wow.
>>
>>
>>
>> No Web3D member-only information is included in these minutes… but please
>> do note: several valuable items documented here have Web3D member-only
>> access.
>>
>>
>>
>> Consortium membership has value! *Please consider joining*.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Join the Web3D Consortium
>> - https://www.web3d.org/join
>>
>>
>>
>> Have fun with X3D4! 8)
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x3d-public mailing list
>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>>
>>
>
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