[x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: commentreviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications

Wed Jan 25 09:45:14 PST 2023

➢ That is l, create an X3DJSON loader that supports scene creation with SAI,

I would say to focus on SAI scene creation. The DOM already has its services for processing html dom graph so should be available if scene is hosted by html browser. 

➢ I just don’t know if methods like … 

All browser services and data types are listed in the SAI abstract spec. 

Joe

From: John Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 1:46 AM
To: Joseph D Williams
Cc: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV); GPU Group; Michalis Kamburelis; Myeong Won Lee; X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: commentreviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications

Actually x3djsonld.py is already well on the way to doing this.  I just don’t know if methods like createNode are available and maybe preferred. (Of course i realize there are constructors which can be used)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 3:19 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
I am merely talking of constructing scenes using a JSON source.  Instead converting to DOM, which may not be available, I would convert to an SAI scenegraph.   That is l, create an X3DJSON loader that supports scene creation with SAI, if not DOM.

John 

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:04 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:

• I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers with SAI and no DOM

Please let me help you figure this out. 
As shown by dedicated json forms like gltfs and glblobs and other uses of encoding syntax that can store data with content that depends upon hierarchy, names, and data types and structures, ordinary json can provide the author with a way to encode custom data in some custom data structure for purpose of producing custom content delivered in a custom form. In other words, when x3d browsers and tools support import and export of json, then authors can do special stuff to aid them in the complex job of authoring. For instance the current gltf was designed by people that understand generation and maintenance of a complex scene graph and so if x3d supports gltf json then x3d author can use those data structures relatively easily in an environment that can actually validate the scene content prior to execution. So, that is where ordinary json fits in with x3d. Just another general purpose tool very useful for handling various sorts of data involved in authoring and delivering realtime interactive 3D viz using WWW. 
So, if I choose to define sets of data that I want to use and call by some name and it fits a json standard form, then I ought to be able to do so freely. For example, If I have an HAnim skin field, I want to be able to store that in my json file then the user code gets lots more simple because in place of the list of points, I just have a reference to the json file. However, I do not wish to encode an entire scene graph using json. So, for general validation of json content, I think two levels: First if the author has not provided a schema then it is only necessary to check for valid data json structures. Second, if the author provides a schema then look at names, data structures, and types. 
And, json files can include both authortime and runtime stuffs, at more or less the author’s choice. So the important item is not to limit the long-term potential of a feature like json for some relatively simple stuff while not unnecessarily promoting it use as a specialized syntax to describe and validate the entire scene graph. 
Thanks, and Best, 
Joe

From: John Carlson
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 12:36 AM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV); GPU Group; Joe D Williams; Michalis Kamburelis; Myeong Won Lee
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group agenda 20 JAN 2023: comment reviewfor C, C++, C# draft specifications

Don, I’m hoping you can add “JSON for SAI—X3DJSONLS.*” to the schedule for the 27th.  I need to figure out if there’s a niche for JSON in browsers with SAI and no DOM.  In particular, optional scene validation with SAI generated from X3DUOM would be a great addition if not already provided when JSON is loaded into the scene with SAI.  One thing i faced with C++ was I wasn’t aware of any SAI implementations; is now a good time to ask?  I was told to make a standalone app.

I had not considered replacing the JavaScript “document” and associated DOM methods with SAI methods in X3DJSONLD.* before.  I could use some help with that, and start building X3DJSONLS.* for browsers without DOM (Xj3D?)

I’m hoping scene validation will be supported in all SAI standards.  I realize some “x3d browsers” do not support reasonable SAI standard interfaces—that’s what X3DJSONLD is for.  For those without DOM, either DOM can be added, or X3DJSONLS can be used.

Maybe I’ll get a donkey head to wear to meetings. ;)  I’m imagining the one from the “Lambchop” show would be ideal.

I’m hoping that SAI provides at a minimum, createNode, addChild and setAttribute or the equivalent (array indexing instead of addChild).  I’m also recalling that JavaScript can use [] instead of setAttribute.  I guess i may only need the createNode, route interfaces and proto creation in JavaScript SAI.  We can keep the property name prefixes in JSON for JavaScript mentioned in another message, i was confused looking at an app which used “.” for property access.  Perhaps a hash table, proxy, or associative array would be good for other languages.

I do still think that X3DJSONLD offers some benefits for loading “HTML JSON” and “SVG JSON”.  Indeed, I need to expand the XML namespaces i support on my web app.  X3DJSONLD was never really considered an X3D only app, instead, I wanted to provide support for a wide variety of JSON to DOM conversions.

So now I’ll start pursuing something more crafted for SAI.

I bet you got kind of surprised when i ported X3JSONLD.java to X3DJSAIL. Apologies!

A “green light,” “yellow light” or “red light” would be great.   I’ll probably need help designing internal and external interface names.

I have posted X3DJSONLD.java which can be copied to X3DJSONLS.java on the sourceforge.net x3d project as a starting point for the JSON to SAI project to give you optimal delivery options.  x3djsonld.py isn’t done yet, and already relies heavily on x3d.py (no DOM).

Here is code:

https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/java/src/net/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD.java

We can discuss whether X3DJSONLS or X3DJSONLD should be delivered in X3DJSAIL or not.  Java supports DOM natively, and X3DJSAIL offers both DOM and SAI.  Obviously we have to wash and repeat for each language.

John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:25 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
We meet at our regular time tomorrow, 0900-1000 pacific Friday 20 JAN.

First we will briefly review updates to the following important status resource, discussing next steps.
• Updated. X3D Node Inventory Comparison (.pdf) shows node-by-node implementation coverage of the X3D Abstract Specification: validation using X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node sets; plus selected open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE, view3dscene (Castle Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf

Our primary goal is to review all comments on the C, C++, C# draft specifications and ensure they are captured appropriately in the Web3D Consortium Mantis Issue Tracker. Results will be submitted to ISO.

All participation is welcome.  Last week’s minutes attached for convenience.  Have fun with X3D! 8)

all the best, Don
-- 
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

From: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 10:40 AM
To: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) x3d-public at web3d.org
Cc: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
Subject: X3D Working Group minutes 13 JAN 2023: refined goals, ISO specification updates, X3D4 implementation upgrade guidelines?

Happy Friday 13th everyone!  (bwa ha ha…)

Today we held our regular weekly meeting of X3D Working Group, Friday 13 January 2023 at 09-10 pacific.  Connection information and topics follow.

• https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09 
• https://zoom.us/j/148206572  Password 483805 
• https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information 

Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Doug Sanden, Don Brutzman.

1. Goal statement review.  Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.  Refined:

a.      Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
b.      Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.

The dozen corresponding standards to receive these updates are illustrated as follows:

• X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
• https://web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.png

2. Milestone: X3D4 Architecture Finalization.  

Last Tuesday we held a totally successful ISO Editors meeting for X3D4 Architecture Draft International Specification (DIS).  ISO review and approval deliberations continue.

Today we reviewed progress, changes and next steps following.  Almost finally, finally done locking in all details…

• X3D4: Extensible 3D (X3D) Part 1: Architecture and base components, ISO/IEC 19775-1:2022
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/Architecture.html

• Mantis Issue Tracker
• https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php

Mantis issues are being updated to track all of the agreed-upon ISO changes correctly.

Given the formally approved list of X3D4 Architecture changes, we can finally proceed with document editing.  Next step is to apply CSS-markup highlighted changes to the current DIS source for group review.

Proposed github location for that draft:

• Web3D Consortium GitHub Archive 
• https://github.com/Web3dConsortium
• https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19775/ISO-IEC19775-1/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.0/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS
• ISO-IEC19775-1v4-ProposedIS will be new directory location, eventual rename to “IS” once accepted by ISO

X3D schema, DTD, X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL updates in progress, so far so good.  Have applied most validation-related changes.  Initial recapitalization/dehyphenization of Web Audio-related enumerations to follow.

Forward thinkers can rest assured that no good ideas regarding X3D evolution that didn’t “make the final ISO cut” are getting lost.  All future possibilities will continue to be tracked in Mantis and designated as future X3D 4.1.

3. Web3D Review of C, C++, C# draft standards for X3D 3.3.  

Deadline is imminent, we intend to review all comments next week.  Based on that review, X3D Working Group will make a recommendation to Web3D Board of Directors regarding Consortium and community inputs on specification readiness.

4. Preparing for Outreach.

We discussed how to communicate the soon-to-happen approval of X3D 4.0 by ISO, including possible testimonials by members, implementers, authors, users, Standards Development Organization (SDO) partners, et al.

All testimonial statements are welcome.  Web3D Consortium Executive Director Anita Havele to participate.

5. X3D Node Inventory Comparison.

We took another look at this spreadsheet, let’s prepare to regularly update.  Multiple other assets can also be used by implementers to support upgrading to X3D4.

• X3D Specifications: Schema and DOCTYPE Validation
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications
• These assets are commonly used for XML validation of X3D scenes, and in-depth documentation is also provided here.

• X3D Node Inventory Comparison (.pdf) shows node-by-node implementation coverage of the X3D Abstract Specification: validation using X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and X3D Schematron; X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node sets; plus selected open-source implementations: FreeWrl, X3DOM, X_ITE, view3dscene (Castle Game Engine), X3D-Edit, Xj3D.
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xslx (master in version control)
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
• This will be updated to X3D 4.0 latest, with changes highlighted in yellow

• X3D Tooltips 4.0 also highlights all changes in yellow
• https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html
• For example, Anchor tooltips:
• https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#Anchor

• The X3D4 Architecture specification itself also reveals specific changes to nodes and fields, from versions 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 and 4.0:
• X3D4 Architecture, Annex Z, Version Content
• https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/versionContent.html
• For example, looking at Anchor node, you can see in rightmost column that v4.0 adds load, bboxDisplay, autoRefreshTimeLimit etc.

Suggested: should we create an X3D4 Migration Guide to help implementers?  Seems like an excellent idea, also “rings true” with our initial goal statements today.

Volunteers please?  Creating some form of X3D4 Migration Guide checklist to assist implementers might be quite useful.  Also an excellent professional opportunity for experts and consultants to demonstrate (and upgrade) their expertise.

6. All other business.  

Good discussions on download statistics (X3D-Edit, FreeWrl) and a variety of other topics... we’re having fun now!

As ever, many thanks for the work of many contributors.  Deep breath… wow.

No Web3D member-only information is included in these minutes… but please do note: several valuable items documented here have Web3D member-only access.

Consortium membership has value!  Please consider joining.

• Join the Web3D Consortium
• https://www.web3d.org/join

Have fun with X3D4!   8)

all the best, Don
-- 
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

all the best, Don
-- 
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

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