[x3d-public] ProtoBody completeness in nested Protos
GPU Group
gpugroup at gmail.com
Tue Apr 26 06:16:57 PDT 2022
http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit_stack_push_and_pop.jpg
http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit_stack_push_and_pop.x3d
On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 9:23 PM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Thank you for these examples. These are great to study execution contexts.
>
> The tricky Proto_context_inherit_and_declare.x3d (see below) first
> defines a Thing proto (red sphere) which is then inherited in another
> proto (NestedDuo) and instanced inside the NestedDuo proto. Then the
> Thing proto gets redefined inside the NestedDuo proto as blue box and
> instanced again. Finally, the NestedDuo proto is instanced in the main
> scene, and a red sphere and blue box is displayed.
>
> So freewrl protos inherit parent proto definitions but these inherited
> protos can then be redeclared. This is very reasonable but I am not
> sure if such inheritance is intended or required in X3D. It may be
> silently intended (as Don may have suggested) but the idea of
> execution contexts and name scopes would be that there is
> encapsulation rather than somehow permeable boundaries.
>
> Another experiment would be to now add a Thing instance to the main
> scene at the end, in another transform to not overlap other shapes.
>
> Should the final Thing display a red sphere or a blue box ?
>
> My guess is a red sphere (if the scene name scope is maintained) but I
> am not sure since it may be that there is actually just one global
> name scope (for protos), or that the redefinition somehow affects the
> parent execution context. Don outlined more of a sequential processing
> flow which may favor display of a blue box.
>
> -Andreas
>
> <ProtoDeclare name='Thing'>
> <ProtoBody>
> <Shape>
> <Appearance>
> <Material diffuseColor='1 0 0' />
> </Appearance>
> <Sphere/>
> </Shape>
> </ProtoBody>
> </ProtoDeclare>
>
> <ProtoDeclare name='NestedDuo'>
> <ProtoBody>
> <Group>
> <Transform translation='-1 0 0'>
> <ProtoInstance name='Thing' />
> </Transform>
>
> <ProtoDeclare name='Thing'>
> <ProtoBody>
> <Shape>
> <Appearance>
> <Material diffuseColor='0 0 1' />
> </Appearance>
> <Box/>
> </Shape>
> </ProtoBody>
> </ProtoDeclare>
>
> <Transform translation='1 0 0'>
> <ProtoInstance name='Thing' />
> </Transform>
> </Group>
> </ProtoBody>
> </ProtoDeclare>
>
> <ProtoInstance name='NestedDuo' />
> <!-- experiment below -->
> <Transform translation='3 0 0'
> <ProtoInstance name='Thing' />
> </Transform>
>
> > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:59:38 -0600
> > From: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
> >
> >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit_and_declare.x3d
> >
> >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit_and_declare.jpg
> >
> >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit.jpg
> >
> >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_inherit.x3d
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 4:11 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_vs_name.x3d
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_context_vs_name.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 4:01 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/CircleFish.jpg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_nested.jpg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/protos/Proto_nested.x3d
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 1:10 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Doug,
> > >>>
> > >>> Thank you for your response.
> > >>>
> > >>> > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:09:14 -0600
> > >>> > From: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
> > >>> >
> > >>> > freewrl loads extern proto scenes as whole scene files, but as
> 'dead'
> > >>> > scenery like a library file: in binary form, ready to binary deep
> copy
> > >>> > parts to live scenery, but node initialization functions not yet
> > >>> > called, and not rendered. Subsequent # references to the same scene
> > >>> file
> > >>> > use the same loaded library scene. So any ProtoDeclares outside the
> > >>> > ProtoBody would be resolved.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think the issue in the CircleFishLod prototype is not directly
> > >>> related to extern proto use, but only to how the local ProtoDeclare
> > >>> definition needs to reach into the surrounding Scene. It sounds like
> > >>> freewrl allows for that mixing of Execution Contexts, assuming that
> > >>> the CircleFishLod proto works in freewrl.
> > >>>
> > >>> A stress test example would be a Scene which has two Protos, A and B.
> > >>>
> > >>> A is a simple Proto with the name "Joe". The scene uses it in an
> > >>> instance later.
> > >>>
> > >>> B is a nested Proto which internally uses another Proto. This
> internal
> > >>> Proto is also named "Joe" and has both a ProtoDeclare and instances
> > >>> within B. The scene then uses B in an instance later.
> > >>>
> > >>> How should a browser resolve which ProtoDeclaration to use for the
> > >>> internal ProtoInstance "Joe" ? Which one would freewrl choose ? The
> > >>> first one it finds ?
> > >>>
> > >>> Perhaps it is time to draft such a test.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks, Andreas
> > >>>
> > >>> PS: rough draft
> > >>>
> > >>> <ProtoDeclare name='Joe'>
> > >>> <ProtoBody red sphere />
> > >>> </ProtoDeclare>
> > >>>
> > >>> <ProtoDeclare name='nestedBox'>
> > >>> <ProtoBody>
> > >>> <ProtoDeclare name='Joe'>
> > >>> <ProtoBody blue box />
> > >>> </ProtoDeclare>
> > >>> <ProtoInstance name='Joe' />
> > >>> </ProtoBody>
> > >>> </ProtoDeclare>
> > >>>
> > >>> <ProtoInstance name='Joe' />
> > >>> <ProtoInstance name='nested' />
> > >>>
> > >>> Should display a red sphere and blue box.
> > >>>
> > >>> > -Doug
> > >>> > PS this relates to:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > PROTOTYPE STYLE IMPORTS
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I had mentioned a prototype style import for gltf use:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Shape { url=?library.gltf#shapeName? }
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Similar to how we load extern protos as a whole ?dead? scene, and
> then
> > >>> do
> > >>> > binary deep copies where used in the live scene to make live.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > But interestingly, the same goes for x3d scenery ? don?t need glTF,
> > >>> don?t
> > >>> > need extern protos in library scene, don?t need Inline or IMPORT.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > So the concept could be tested first with x3d scenery.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Shape { url=?library.x3dv#shapeName }
> > >>> >
> > >>> > And then extended to gltf.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > /PROTOTYPE STYLE IMPORTS
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 10:43 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> > >>> > brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Actually please look a little more closely at that (admittedly
> > >>> tricky)
> > >>> > > example.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > * CircleFish is an ExternProto, separately defined in another
> file
> > >>> > > * CircleFishLod is a ProtoDeclare defined in that first file,
> > >>> > > CircleFishLodPrototype.x3d
> > >>> > > * CircleFishLod ProtoBody contains two ProtoInstance copies of
> > >>> CircleFish
> > >>> > > * CircleFishLod ProtoDeclare is then followed by a CircleFishLod
> > >>> > > ProtoInstance (again in CircleFishLodPrototype.x3d)
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > So I would expect an X3D Browser to
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > a. load ExternProtoDeclare CircleFish
> > >>> > > b. build ProtoDeclare CircleFishLod
> > >>> > > c. create inner ProtoInstance CircleFish for use
> > >>> > > d. create outer ProtoInstance CircleFishLod
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Order of steps might vary a bit, but those are the dependencies.
> > >>> Good luck
> > >>> > > sir.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > all the best, Don
> > >>> > > --
> > >>> > > Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> > >>> > > brutzman at nps.edu
> > >>> > > Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> > >>> > > +1.831.656.2149
> > >>> > > X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> > >>> > > faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >>> > > From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> On Behalf Of
> Andreas
> > >>> > > Plesch
> > >>> > > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 9:08 PM
> > >>> > > To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> > >>> > > Subject: [x3d-public] ProtoBody completeness in nested Protos
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > ProtoDeclarations may use ProtoInstances of other Protos inside
> their
> > >>> > > ProtoBody definitions.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > For example, the CircleFishLod proto here:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fx3dgraphic
> > >>> > > s.com
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> %2Fexamples%2FX3dForWebAuthors%2FKelpForestExhibit%2FCircleFishLodProto
> > >>> > > typeIndex.html&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu
> > >>> > > %7C0b4a867ba9874e371f9b0
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> 8da267152fa%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637864565880708349%
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=upr4eckI8axT7MO5fAUvAWfyBzUJfhTwqcp
> > >>> > > BuH7tZjc%3D&reserved=0
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > uses ProtoInstances of the CircleFish proto.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > A more extreme case of nesting is:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/ConformanceNist/Miscellaneous/PRO
> > >>> > > TO/fivedeepnestingIndex.html
> > >>> > > <
> > >>>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/ConformanceNist/Miscellaneous/PROTO/fivedeepnestingIndex.html
> > >>> >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > where Proto1 uses ProtoInstance of Proto2 inside its ProtoBody.
> > >>> Proto2
> > >>> > > itself uses a ProtoInstance of Proto3 inside its ProtoBody. And
> so
> > >>> on to
> > >>> > > five levels deep.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > The second example with the deep nesting currently works with
> x3dom
> > >>> but the
> > >>> > > seemingly simpler CircleFishLod proto does not.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > The reason is that x3dom expects the complete definition of a
> proto
> > >>> to be
> > >>> > > contained in its ProtoBody. However, The CircleFishLod proto only
> > >>> contains
> > >>> > > the CircleFish ProtoInstances in the body but not the associated
> > >>> CircleFish
> > >>> > > ProtoDeclaration which for some reason occurs outside the
> > >>> CircleFishLod
> > >>> > > ProtoBody (and outside the CircleFishLod ProtoDeclaration).
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Expecting the ProtoBody to be complete and self-contained seems
> > >>> rather
> > >>> > > natural. Is x3dom too strict in this regard, or is there an
> > >>> oversight in
> > >>> > > the
> > >>> > > example ? There is not much guidance in the spec., if any.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Thanks, Andreas
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > --
> > >>> > > Andreas Plesch
> > >>> > > Waltham, MA 02453
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>> > > x3d-public mailing list
> > >>> > > x3d-public at web3d.org
> > >>> > > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> > >>> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>> > > x3d-public mailing list
> > >>> > > x3d-public at web3d.org
> > >>> > > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> > >>> > >
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> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > ------------------------------
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Message: 4
> > >>> > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:14:25 +0000
> > >>> > From: "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <brutzman at nps.edu>
> > >>> > To: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> > >>> > Cc: "x3d at web3d.org" <x3d at web3d.org>, Spec Feedback
> > >>> > <spec-comment at web3d.org>, "X3D Public Mailing List
> > >>> > (x3d-public at web3d.org)" <x3d-public at web3d.org>, "Brutzman,
> > >>> Donald
> > >>> > (Don) (CIV)" <brutzman at nps.edu>
> > >>> > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by on 19775-1: X3D
> > >>> > Architecture - V4.0: component support needed for glTF
> inline
> > >>> loading
> > >>> > conversion
> > >>> > Message-ID:
> > >>> > <
> > >>>
> BY3PR13MB48844D178FEBD3BCA8221B51C4F89 at BY3PR13MB4884.namprd13.prod.outlook.com
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>> >
> > >>> > [cc: x3d-public]
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Thanks for insightful comment. Happy to modify this statement to
> list
> > >>> all
> > >>> > appropriate components, possibly Immersive profile.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Michalis, do you have any opinions from writing your glTF->X3D
> > >>> conversion
> > >>> > code?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > It helps to know full coverage. If there is a glTF test file that
> > >>> includes
> > >>> > all constructs, that would also be helpful to convert and add to
> our
> > >>> > architecture.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > all the best, Don
> > >>> > --
> > >>> > Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> > >>> brutzman at nps.edu
> > >>> > Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> > >>> +1.831.656.2149
> > >>> > X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
> > >>> > faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -----Original Message-----
> > >>> > From: x3d <x3d-bounces at web3d.org> On Behalf Of Spec Feedback
> > >>> > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 12:47 PM
> > >>> > To: x3d at web3d.org
> > >>> > Subject: [x3d] Spec Comment by on 19775-1: X3D Architecture - V4.0
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -- Submitter indicates that this comment may be public: *Yes* --
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Comment on 19775-1: X3D Architecture - V4.0
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/component
> > >>> > s/networking.html#X3DUrlObject
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -----------------
> > >>> > "Support for loading glTF assets (see 2.[GLTF]) also requires
> support
> > >>> for
> > >>> > Shape component level 2 and Lighting component level 4."
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Many different data fragments may be contained in the current
> standard
> > >>> gltf
> > >>> > asset structure, even animation data, so maybe also more general
> > >>> statement?
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -----------------
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Submitted on Thursday, 2022, April 21 - 12:47pm by (Joe D
> Williams )
> > >>> > IP: 12.206.82.58
> > >>> >
> > >>> > See: https://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/5663
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>> > x3d mailing list
> > >>> > x3d at web3d.org
> > >>> > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org
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> > >>> >
> > >>> > ------------------------------
> > >>> >
> > >>> > End of x3d-public Digest, Vol 157, Issue 93
> > >>> > *******************************************
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Andreas Plesch
> > >>> Waltham, MA 02453
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> x3d-public mailing list
> > >>> x3d-public at web3d.org
> > >>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> > >>>
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> >
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> >
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>
>
> --
> Andreas Plesch
> Waltham, MA 02453
>
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
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