[x3d-public] X3D minutes: X3D Graphics Specification Relationships, request review of Integrating X3D and glTF

Sat Aug 6 17:31:06 PDT 2022

Web3D Consortium involvement in Metaverse Standards Forum is
straightforward:  we are a Standards Development Organization (SDO) with
many applicable standards.  Our goal is to represent that capably so that
others understand.  It gives Web3D Consortium an excellent way to reach many
other interested organizations and explore standards interoperability.  We
have a strong set of capabilities within that even-broader set of goals.

As far as individual efforts for X3D HAnim and Web3D, they remain most
welcome in x3d-public community.

Glad you watched Nicholas Polys video from SIGGRRAPH 2022 Birds of a Feather
(BOF) meeting, it explains many things about what we are doing.

*	Web3D Ecosystem and the Metaverse - SIGGRAPH 2022 BOF
https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/1553065575512911876
*	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T8WbIpdIDc

As far as Metaverse Standards Forum might be engaging with individual
efforts, please check over there.  Last week they advertised that they now
have 1200 members.  Not seeing individual membership.

*	https://metaverse-standards.org 
*	Hosted by the Khronos Group, the Forum membership is currently open
to for-profit or nonprofit organizations, including companies, standards
organizations, industry associations or universities at no charge.

all the best, Don

-- 

Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu

Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149

X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 5:38 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>; X3D Public Mailing List
(x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D minutes: X3D Graphics Specification
Relationships, request review of Integrating X3D and glTF

How does a web3d member get plugged into multiuser Metaverse standards?
See next section down for my experience.

Welcome to complexity where imperative models can be made declarative and
declarative models can be made imperative.   Future or present SAI?

Here is my understanding.   X3D scenegraph encodings and glTF assets are
both declarative (this used to be called structured mode).   Both have ways
of working with imperative code (this used to be called immediate mode).
SAI application code can be either declarative or imperative or both.   I'm
thinking that I introduced building a imperative  way of using SAI with
X3DJSAIL and Don introduced building a declarative way of using SAI with
X3DJSAIL.

We worked on parallel paths, but I started using declarative programming
after Don proved it out.  Imperative programming is still fully possible,
AFAIK.

So no one needs to put up their noses and say, "We're only declarative" or
"We're only imperative". Those boats have shipped long ago.

Thanks for listening.    Everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

Of course, each SAI implementation may choose not to implement load/export,
but Don's and Myeong's focus on providing XSLT for nearly anything proves
its worth.   I have not been able to produce much XSLT code because I prefer
a more imperative approach.

My work mainly involves JSON loading into DOM documents, which provides a
path back to XML.

Unfinished work is JSON to Python.  I'm hoping we can accomplish a path from
XML or JSON into Python.   Why Python?   Why not?

I do think the target to hit is WASM  (web assembly) for 3D graphics.   I
think the best use of the Metaverse might be virtual travel.

=============================

I worked long hours last week improving my Java lircom project,  which
includes a multiuser 3D authoring tool (which might be useful for building
colorful borg ships), multiuser solitaire and multiuser chat system.   The
goal here is to provide a multiuser messaging protocol below the application
protocols.   Something like JMS would probably be adequate if JMS systems
worked across the internet.

I also have a JavaScript multiuser system that supports a world tag game,
simple card system and chat.   It's based on socket.io
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsocket.io%
2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cbdc0c6d817e2428d066508da7743f8fe%7C6d
936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637953431078260556%7CUnknown%7CTWFp
bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7
C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EWGAk2dkrnEhtPhJPSeESyf%2BrZWXa5rIcNusiU5%2BpQw%3D&rese
rved=0> 

I am open to someone taking over these projects.   I do need to provide more
documentation.

I know Christoph Valentin is looking for web developers for his multiuser
systems.   Perhaps we should look at that since I think the Metaverse is
supposed to be multiuser?

Indeed, he has lots of comparisons between multiuser systems components that
might be used in the Metaverse.

I am not sure if multiuser is a strength of Web3d (joined any DIS worlds
lately?), but many people are interested multiuser systems.   What standards
body can we pair with who has a multiuser standard at the ISO level?
Perhaps we should consider just using Jabber/XMPP and things like libjingle?

Can we or do we want to resurrect Google Wave?

John

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 12:31 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
<brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:

Attendees: Anita Havele, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman

We normally meet Fridays 09-1000 pacific.  (Regrets, no meeting next week.)

1.	ISO Annual Meeting.  Dick and Don reviewed almost-complete annual
meeting of ISO standards committee SC24.  Our liaison report has been shared
with Web3D Consortium members providing detail on all Web3D X3D and HAnim
issues.  Once the ISO meeting resolutions are shared and reviewed with
members, we'll be posting the Web3D Liaison report for public awareness.
Summary:  everything we have declared is progressing well.

2.	X3D Graphics Specification Relationships.  We have made some small
adjustments to our (very busy!) chart describing all Web3D Consortium
standards, and how they relate to other standards.  Updated online at

*
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.png
*
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dGraphicsStandardsRelationships.pdf

Improvements to color legend:

*	Grey, Proposed
*	Orange, Working draft in progress
*	Yellow, ISO balloting in progress
*	White, ISO approved

Thus three standards are in ballot (X3D 4.0 Architecture, X3D 3.3 SAI
Bindings for C, C++, C#) and one standard is getting updated (X3D SAI from
3.3 to 4.0).

Of note is that rough-draft notes for (X3D SAI from 3.3 to 4.0) are posted
as follows.  Next step will be to put HTML versions with editorial markup in
Web3D Consortium's github version control.

*
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSaiReviewCommentsJuly2022.reduced.pd
f

As ever, comments welcome.

3.	X3D and glTF Comparison.  Anita is checking our most recent postings
that compared glTF and X3D, which led to full support of glTF capabilities
in X3D4.

*	Integrating X3D and glTF: How to Play Together Well on the WWW
*	Nicholas Polys, Ph.D., October, 2019
*	https://www.web3d.org/blog-integrating-x3d-and-gltf

and

*	X3D and glTF Features Comparison, 3 NOV 2017
*
https://www.web3d.org/sites/default/files/page/X3D%20Version%204%20Overview/
glTfX3dFeaturesComparison.pdf

Hoping to confirm that everything there is still correct. changes in X3D4
likely means that some of these entries need to be updated.

Review comments and improvements are welcome.

4.	Web3D Ecosystem and the Metaverse - SIGGRAPH 2022 BOF.  An excellent
presentation is now available:

*	Web3D Ecosystem and the Metaverse - SIGGRAPH 2022 BOF, Join the
Web3D Consortium for a discussion on how #X3D technology contributes to the
Metaverse. From Interactive Real-Time 3D, to Mixed Reality and Humanoid
Animation #HAnim for an open Metaverse.
*	https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/1553065575512911876
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.c
om%2FWeb3DConsortium%2Fstatus%2F1553065575512911876&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%
40nps.edu%7Cbdc0c6d817e2428d066508da7743f8fe%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f75789633
78e%7C0%7C0%7C637953431078260556%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oZbXr7
v6Z%2FQXcZJcit5uFilHoPmRl4ZhYxO1dpLNotk%3D&reserved=0> 
*	https://youtu.be/2T8WbIpdIDc
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%
2F2T8WbIpdIDc&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cbdc0c6d817e2428d066508da77
43f8fe%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637953431078416708%7CUnk
nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV
CI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kj8Cc3Fj1scRbkvYrM%2BI6c3mKMPdcU2Jj4U1z1Y93T
0%3D&reserved=0> 

TODO: post two more videos from SIGGRAPH 2022 BOFs. hopefully next week.

5.	Metaverse Standards Forum.  As a Standards Development Organization
(SDO) Web3D Consortium is a founding member of Metaverse Standards Forum.
This work continues to ramp up rapidly, now with 1200 members.

*	Metaverse Standards Forum: Where Leading Standards Organizations and
Companies Cooperate to Foster Interoperability Standards for an Open
Metaverse
*	https://metaverse-standards.org
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetaverse
-standards.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cbdc0c6d817e2428d066508
da7743f8fe%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637953431078416708%7
CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=d0ZzhsRn71WCu99ZgLUEWqKcnM%2BwOoINxBniCt
HP7XU%3D&reserved=0> 

Web3D Consortium actually has a lot of available technology capabilities in
this space.  To learn more, please see

*	"The Metaverse Standards Forum provides a unique opportunity to
achieve secure, collaborative (interoperable), durable, and pervasive
Mixed-Reality content," said Nicholas Polys Ph.D., president of the Web3D
Consortium.
*	https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/1539412412377333761
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.c
om%2FWeb3DConsortium%2Fstatus%2F1539412412377333761&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%
40nps.edu%7Cbdc0c6d817e2428d066508da7743f8fe%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f75789633
78e%7C0%7C0%7C637953431078572953%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5c%2BE
X6VtTFTcdfiFztRhI7DntKHCQ%2F0pjNd47LQtjgY%3D&reserved=0> 
*
https://www.web3d.org/blog/anitahavele/keys-open-interoperable-metaverse

6.	Or else.  Have fun with X3D!  8)

all the best, Don

-- 

Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu
<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> 

Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149

X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman> 

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