[x3d-public] X3D minutes 11 FEB 2022: , X3D4 Particle Systems component review, adding enabled field to X3DParticleEmitterNode ?

Sun Feb 13 06:17:09 PST 2022

I had brainstormed using particle emitters for representing crowds walking
around on a plaza. Someone said that's different - an agent model. But
seems to relate to your collector concept.
currently - emitter with physics trajectory
Carlson - collector with physics models, such as sink drain
INLINE WEB3D PUBLIC COMMENT SUBMISSION:
Sanden - HAnim particles, with sources and sinks (subway / building doors),
and agent model with walking physics/animation
/INLINE WEB3D PUBLIC COMMENT SUBMISSION
Doug

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:35 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to talk to someone about fluid dynamics first, I think. I have
> civil and aeronautical engineers in my family.
>
> How can one have a collector without an emitter?
>
> Speaking of collectors, does spatial audio have something like a sink that
> could be extended? Or is there lighting where some textures absorb light
> (radiosity?). I’d prefer one way to do things in this case.
>
> My ideas generally go through a painful birthing process.   Maybe I could
> show how a transistor works with emitter, base, and collector?   Perhaps it
> would be useful to show a hohlraum as collecting X-rays until the target
> starts burning on its own?   There are also sinks like CCDs and film.
>
> I think I should brainstorm all the kinds of collectors among the animal
> kingdom?
>
> Do we also consider transmission media?
>
> I have totally switched over to collector from emitter.
>
> Perhaps some collectors create abstract syntax trees?
>
> I believe it would be appropriate to start collecting fields which
> describe collector nodes.
>
> Well there might be a fruit basket with an HAnimHumanoid.   The fruit
> basket might hold.
>
> Volume capacity in number of particles. I’m not sure how to spell pecks.
>
> Weight capacity.  Resistance against gravity
>
> Vacuum pressure in a dimension.
>
> Air pressure might also allow us to model weather.  My roommate from
> college was a metrologist.  Potentially low pressure points in the
> atmosphere could be a node or two.  I am not sure if this has already been
> modeled with wind.
>
> John
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:44 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> John, one of the most effective and succinct ways to express new
>> capabilities is to propose specification changes.  Illustrating them with
>> use-case examples usually centers everyone immediately on the potential
>> value that might be achieved.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are currently in editorial mode.  Nevertheless all proposals for
>> functional improvements are welcome.  They can be
>>
>>    - Recorded in Mantis as ongoing X3D4 and 4.1 issues,
>>    - Implemented in X3D players,
>>    - Tested by authors and users.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oftentimes X3D prototypes (perhaps with embedded scripts) can immediately
>> demonstrate implementations of new functionality.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is how we have always progressed, ever since VRML 1.0 and VRML 97,
>> for many successful years.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughtful proposals and many efforts.
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:22 AM
>> *To:* Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Cc:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>; X3D Public
>> Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] X3D minutes 11 FEB 2022: ,X3D4 Particle
>> Systems component review,adding enabled field to X3DParticleEmitterNode ?
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.powerthesaurus.org/emitter/antonyms
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerthesaurus.org%2Femitter%2Fantonyms&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C08272a39e0f44db1ddad08d9ee43cfc9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637802841598775553%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EGUFyY1Eojf3ZYD5fTZb4o15o8eQtOGN8PC41skUkhs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> Offers “absorber” and none of my selections.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 9:22 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Black hole, drain, vacuum, inhaler, eraser, destroyParticles?
>>
>>
>>
>> Any more ideas.   I guess we’ve nixed negative speed as a bad idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 2:07 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>    - So maybe something that goes -1 (backwards),
>>
>>
>>
>> Something, but not this thing or else needs to change the name. What is
>> the word for the reverse of an emitter?
>>
>>
>> 40.4.5 ParticleSystem
>>
>>
>>
>> Contains this field called createParticles and another named enabled
>>
>>
>>
>> createP starts and stops and operates not like an enabled, which would
>> kill all rather than just stop new. I think all the rest of controls are in
>> there. If e/d moved upto *X3DParticleEmitterNode*  then also move cP unless,
>> and why not, allow emitter
>>
>>  to be an MF then add e/d amd cP for each emitter😊
>>
>>
>>
>> Fun and Lock,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Friday, February 11, 2022 1:19 PM
>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D minutes 11 FEB 2022: ,X3D4 Particle
>> Systems component review,adding enabled field to X3DParticleEmitterNode ?
>>
>>
>>
>> It also might be good to enable a kind of slo-mo effect, if not already
>> handled.  Also an emitter going in reverse.
>>
>>
>>
>> So maybe something that goes -1 (backwards), 0 (disabled), 1 (enabled),
>> and various slo-mo settings in-between.   This would be a weighted factor
>> on speed, where speed provides the maximum speed without the slo-mo setting.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:54 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think it would be better to offer a transition from enabled to disabled
>> and back.   But perhaps that’s max speed and min speed?
>>
>>
>>
>> But I agree that enabled is a good start, and adding a field for full on
>> and full off with no transition is a good idea.   One might think of scenes
>> where a door is shut.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m not sure if full on/full off matches physical reality.   I can think
>> of examples like bombs, volcanoes and dropping things though.
>>
>>
>>
>> A combination of min/max speed and on/off would cover the cases I’m
>> thinking of.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Tweeted:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        X3D meeting minutes 11 FEB 2022: #X3D4 Architecture Particle
>> Systems component review.  Community question: is it OK to add 'enabled'
>> field to all emitter nodes, providing simpler animation control by authors
>> and end users?
>>
>> ·        https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/1492205445120815105
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FWeb3DConsortium%2Fstatus%2F1492205445120815105&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C08272a39e0f44db1ddad08d9ee43cfc9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637802841598775553%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qypcBPrNibgRiC6DZVrgRLlT9TfSbbVVUdKBGuFaBC4%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> Request: if anyone has links or screenshots of Particle System models in
>> X3D4, we are happy to share them publicly. Thanks in advance for all posts.
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 11, 2022 9:28 AM
>> *To:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Cc:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Subject:* X3D minutes 11 FEB 2022: , X3D4 Particle Systems component
>> review, adding enabled field to X3DParticleEmitterNode ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Attendees: Anita Havele, Vince Marchetti, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
>> Regrets: Nicholas Polys, John Carlson.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.      Completed X3D4 Particle Systems component review.  All Mantis
>> issues updated and resolved.  Latest modifications highlighted via CSS with
>> corresponding Mantis issues documented using /title/ attributes.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        X3D4 Architecture, clause 37 Particle Systems component
>>
>> ·
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/particleSystems.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> a. Improved issue notes, WindPhysicsModel:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        Mantis 464: 40.4.10 WindPhysicsModel - Question on Speed
>>
>> ·        https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=464
>>
>> ·        Related issue: Mantis 768.  Deferred to X3D 4.1
>>
>>
>>
>> Likely pressure equation for future use will be based on difference
>> between particle speed and wind speed.
>>
>> Note that the turbulence definition (regarding variability of wind
>> direction) also needs improvement. For example, can highly turbulent wind
>> stop or reverse direction?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> b. New deficiency noted: how do you turn off an emitter node?
>>
>>
>>
>> No /enabled/ field is present.  Possibly /speed/ might be zero, but then
>> particle geometry would still be present and perhaps pulsing...  Possibly a
>> Switch node might hide it, but then the browser writer likely just turns it
>> off anyway to save computational resources, which is functionally
>> equivalent to enabled FALSE.
>>
>>
>>
>> We discussed in some depth… Have raises an issue in Mantis, here posted
>> publicly.  We seek comment, and decide (hopefully next week) whether it is
>> something to be accomplished in X3D 4.0 or else deferred to X3D 4.1.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        Mantis 1380: ability to disable/enable X3DParticleEmitterNode
>>
>> ·        https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
>>
>>
>> Authors are unable to easily turn particle emitter nodes on or off.
>>
>> X3DParticleEmitterNode (and implementing nodes) need field:
>>
>>    SFBool [in out] enabled TRUE
>>
>> Implementation is simple for browsers. This field has no impact on legacy
>> content.
>>
>> Current workarounds:
>> * Possibly /speed/ might be zero, but then a particle would still be
>> present and pulsing...
>> * Possibly a Switch node might hide the emitter, but then the browser
>> writer likely turns it off anyway to save computational resources, which is
>> functionally equivalent to enabled FALSE.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of related note: X3DParticlePhysicsModelNode in this component does
>> include an enabled field, for identical purposes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Vince discussed his Browser Review document noting X3D support, we hope
>> to look at this draft further next week.
>>
>> No member-only information included on this page.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope everybody has another great week.  Have fun with X3D!
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
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