[x3d-public] X3D Working Group minutes 25 OCT 2019: X3Dv4 issues review, logging, text alignment

Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) brutzman at nps.edu
Fri Oct 25 10:23:46 PDT 2019

Web3D members and interested participants are welcome to join our weekly discussion.

Attendees: Vince Marchetti, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman. Regrets Anita Havele.


The X3D Graphics Working Group addresses all X3D specification issues and coordinates the technical development of future improvements.

Members and invited experts are welcome.  We are an open organization. Please let us know if you have an important topic to present or discuss.

Each week we report out both public and member-only information - membership has value.  To become a Web3D Consortium member:
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Teleconference information appears below.


1. *Agenda check*.  Looking good.

Recent minutes:

[0] [x3d-public] X3D Working Group minutes 18 OCT 2019: X3Dv4 issues review (corrected date)

[1] [x3d-public] X3D minutes 11 OCT 2019: Web3DUX, semantics progress, implementations status, mantis issues, texture/material, X3D-Edit

[2] [x3d-public] X3D minutes 4 OCT 2019: X3D-glTF review, defer Annotations, Layout component, #X3Dv4 implementations/issues update


2. *3D Body Tech Conference*

Anita Havele will let us know more about her impressions and excellent work in Lugano Switzerland for Web3D this past week.

[3a] Web3D at 3D Body Tech Conference


"Web3D Consortium to present @3DBODYTECH International Conference and Exhibition on 3D Human Body Scanning and Processing Technologies in Lugano Switzerland, 22-23 October 2019. Interoperable ISO standard #X3D permits cross-discipline exchange of 3D data using the Web, across platforms and market domains."

Tweets online at


Anita was on CAD DPS call yesterday; Vince was able to call in during Monday 3DBODYTECH conference sessions.

/There is specific work approaching about how we might combine their metadata vocabulary with an actual body scan into a single X3D model./

Wondering when next HAnim teleconference might be?  Perhaps we should try for next week?

Meanwhile... Interesting article in NY Times yesterday showed that unintended consequence of 3D MRI head scans led to recognizable facial images (70% success rate by facial-recognition software).  So we definitely need to be careful about Personal Identifying Information (PII) requirements and responsibilities when working with such content.

[3b]	Health: "You Got a Brain Scan at the Hospital. Someday a Computer May Use It to Identify You."
	Gina Kolata, NY Times, October 24, 2019, Page B8.
	Experts Fear Software Could Match You to Your M.R.I.
	In a disturbing experiment, imaging and facial recognition technologies were used to match research subjects to their M.R.I. scans.


3. *X3Dv4 critical-path issues: physically based rendering, material, textures, advanced lighting, glTF*

X3D Specification Editors meeting planned with Michalis Kamburelis next Tuesday 29 OCT, 0900-1000 Pacific.

Not sure if there is a Medical call one hour earlier... if that is on and still running, we will press ahead and switch to another zoom room.

[4] http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2019-October/011433.html

Regarding last week's discussion, please see his posting and emphasis sections:

[5] Make RGB and grayscale textures treatment consistent

	Exact equations change
	Table 17.2 — Unlit colour and alpha mapping
	Table 17.3 — Lit colour and alpha mapping
	ColorRGBA node

We reviewed this work - makes good sense.  Important prerequisite to advanced rendering.  Entered a Mantis issue on this long-running topic, laying out the path for resolution in X3Dv4.

	Mantis 1266: Make RGB and grayscale textures treatment consistent


4. *Logging Capabilities*

Great discussion continues with great implementation work by Andreas Plesch.  First message in that long interesting thread:

	[x3d-public] Data logging support in X3Dv4

Detailed discussion thread led to

[6]	[x3d-public] Data logging support in X3Dv4

X3DOM example implementation:

Screenshot image attached.  Dramatic capability.

Next message in thread asked if we are ready to add attributes to X3D root node?  We discussed in detail.


> Thanks for the great example - impressive!
> Getting explicit to match your description, it looks like the key statement is
>      <X3D id="x3d" showLog="true" logLevel='5' width="800px" height="600px">
> Adding it to X3D root would seem to work for X3D applications in a non-HTML context as well.  Also makes it easy for any author, and possible for any model (not requiring Script node).  Thus meets goal of easy repeatability too.
> Is this approach (attributes on X3D root) acceptable with everyone, including FreeWrl view3dscene and other standalone application environments?
> If so, wondering if we are ready to tackle other attributes on X3D element (such as id width height url)?
> Once we agree on basic approach, we should also discuss whether scoping of logging is possible.  Can it be turned off for parts of scene graph, does it affect internals within Inline and ProtoInstance, etc.
> Good topic for issue review on X3D Working Group call Friday morning.  Participating in the discussion and email feedback are both welcome.

Allowing attributes on X3D root node is a key issue for how X3Dv4 relates to HTML5.2, and also for application operation in standalone fashion.  We have been exceedingly parsimonious about this alternative during 25 years of VRML/X3D design, wary of a slippery slope.

Distinguishing HTML integration and standalone applications is something to be careful about.  Discussion points:

a. width and height are consistent with HTML use - but could be honored by an application as well.  Added issue for tracking:
	Mantis 1268: add height and width attributes to root X3D node
b. once loglevel is set at load time, can it be manipulated from inside the scene (presumably via a ROUTEd event) during run time?  This would include root, if an attribute is provided...
c. similarly should we have a boolean logEnabled so that a scene can turn logging on/off as needed?
d. X3D root node is not handled exactly the same in each encoding and language binding, so some care is needed.
e. ClassicVRML header does have some attributes, and so not incompatible.
f. Some logging control at root node (even if lower-level scope provided) might be appropriate so that both overall and fine-grained control.  Also enables an author to deliberately ignore any logging going on as part of Inline or prototype content.  Having logEnabled at root, and logging selectably optional elsewhere, would seem to offer both choices.
g. Security consideration: don't want inadvertent sharing of logged data without author permission.  Could be addressed by a global parameter in scene, or a global browser setting that defaults to false which only a user can modify.
h. Do NOT want loggers or scripts to send text data (via url or whatever) without user intervention - that is already the case now.
i. HTML logging may offer several exemplars.  We haven't seen any specified approach; script nodes can collect if they wish; sending might occur via url; indeed a complex but important space.

We are again at the edge of whether logging should be a node, e.g. Logger node.  If so, then this solves the scoping challenge since scope can then be similar to other sensor nodes - peer and children nodes.  If we avoid any logging attributes at root node, a Logger node at the top of the scene would seem to control other peers/children.

Seems like we are getting closer - a bit more design convergence needed.  Not quite ready for detailed draft specification prose, but progress is being made.  We have an opportunity for an excellent addition with potential to improve all aspects of X3Dv4 authoring, animation, troubleshooting and Quality Assurance (QA).

Existing Mantis issue to track logging, most work still in email:

	Mantis 1263:Log capability to record event streams


5. *Text Size and vertical alignment*

Found an old issue report.  There are certainly more out there that we need to get into Mantis for X3Dv4.

[7]	[x3d-public] text size clarification

led to Mantis 1265, any comment?

Wondering why image comparison might differ for X3DOM?


Happy to get a response from Doug Sanden, FreeWRL:

On 10/25/2019 6:06 AM, GPU Group wrote:
> - nist spacing scene
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/Text/Text_size_spacing.x3d
> - freewrl rendering
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/Text/text_size_spacing.jpg

Key references:

	X3D Example Archives: Conformance Nist, Geometry, Text

Sorry but we didn't have time for this issue today.  Could use insights by Nicholas, will reschedule for next time.


6. *Audio and Sound*

Following a verrrry long percolation period, best-case scenario is emerging!  Looks like major improvements for audio and sound are feasible for X3Dv4.  Hooray with thanks to Efi Lakka and Dr. Athanasios Malamos.  Their prize: more good work to follow, carrying this important progress forward.  8)

[8a]	[x3d-public] X3Dv4 Audio and Sound improvements: progress report

Design document:

[8b]	Strategies to Improve X3Dv4 Audio and Sound Component

Conceivably some future issues might arise during X3Dv4.1 Mixed Augmented Reality (MAR) with WebXR alignment - but no blockers yet seen, future refinements can be even better if we have a Web-compatible reset of our spatialized sound model.

Audio researchers and X3D implementers are especially welcome to let us know if there is more to consider.

Email discussion to continue.  Next meeting on this topic is

	X3D Audio and Sound
	Thursday 21 NOV 2019, 0900-1000 Pacific, 1900-2000 Athens

Mantis issues for prior work and tracking next steps:


7. *Summary of progress by other working groups*

a. /CAD Design Printing Scanning/

[9] [cad] Minutes of Oct 24 DPS Working Group Call

More example models for PointProperties are forthcoming.


b. /X3D Semantic Web: paper accepted, tuning ontology and model conversions, performing queries/

[10] [x3d-public] X3D Semantic Web minutes 21 OCT 2019: outreach, parent/child relationships, X3D-Tidy, comprehensive unit testing

[11] X3D Ontology for Semantic Web


c. /Web3D User Experience (Web3DUX) draft charter/

[12] [x3d-public] Web3DUX "wannabe" working group minutes 23 OCT 2019: mission statement

Proposed mission statement: "The Web3D User Experience (Web3DUX) Working Group's mission is to collaboratively establish best practices and standardized capabilities that support rich user experience (UX), intuitive navigation, and effective interaction techniques for a variety of 3D Web technologies."

Participation welcome, next call is Wednesday 30 OCT, 0915-1000.


8. *X3Dv4 Issues Review*

Each week we will continue to steadily go though the Mantis issues tracker to assign tags to issues that need to be tracked as part of X3Dv4 efforts.

[13] Mantis Issue Tracker (requires 2 sets of member login)

[14] X3D Version 4 Overview

[15] X3Dv4 Highlights

[16] X3Dv4 Implementations Status

Added GeoOrigin to Deferrals and Deprecation section, noting that it should no longer be deprecated.  Reviewed, refined spec prose is advisable.  Now added to X3Dv4 issues list, updated Mantis.

	Mantis 689: Deprecate use of GeoOrigin in X3Dv3.3 - restored in X3Dv4.0


9. *Teleconference Information*

We have switched to Zoom channel, to good effect.  It allows use of internet audio, screen sharing and chat with links.

We meet regularly on Fridays 0800-0930 pacific.  To join the teleconference:
	Web3D Teleconference

* Friday 08-1000 pacific, Join URL https://zoom.us/j/148206572 for X3D Working Group

One tap mobile
* US (New York) +19292056099,,148206572 #
* US (San Jose) +16699006833,,148206572 #

Dial by your location, using (nine-digit number from Join URL above)

* US (New York) +1 929 205 6099
* US (San Jose) +1 669 900 6833


10. *Endgame for today*

See various entries above for upcoming meeting schedules.  We strive to keep online calendar updated.

	Web3D Calendar

Confirmed: we reviewed public minutes to confirm that no member-only information is present.

Lots of effort continues...  /Only 7 weeks left/ until we close the X3Dv4 contributions window on 16 DEC 2019.

[99] Sounds of doors slamming

... what an enjoyable set of sounds.  8)

Please consider how you are helping... there are plenty of things TODO for everyone.

Rendering, audio and events, oh my!  Have fun with X3Dv4.   8)

all the best, Don
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br       brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA   +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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